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September 05, 2014

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Paul Flynn

P.S. A request has been to point out that a version of the Long March did take place but almost invisible to media and public. As a regular reader of the campaign websites, i noticed that the march was not recorded. The march stopped for some days for rain and on others it became a street stall. Unfortunately while a few people walked or cycle long distances, the march was a pale shadow of what was widely advertised. There will an assessment of the campaign soon. Perhaps they will have the objectivity to recognise where things went wrong in order to provide an effective protest movement for the future.

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PF: "A young generation that has been richly endowed with material wealth still campaign against poverty - in the third world maybe but not in our rich western world."

Relatively speaking I agree there is no similarity in material conditions between here and say rural Afghanistan.

But that is not to say there are not under nourished children in Newport or many places in the UK.

Plus if we don't make a priority of protecting the welfare rights of the sick what is the logical outcome of their fate? We are letting the likes of Rupert Murdoch and political spivs destroy these safeguards against real poverty.

Wealthy as we may be in comparison this doesn't tell the whole story because of the sheer inequality which bleeds into politics of the HAVES against those without.

Any elected representative has a duty even in a rich society because many need YOUR protection. Sorry if that comes across as a lecture.

Cymro

THor SonofOdin

You must know that your message is ridden with straw man fallacies, contradictions and cliches.

Trying to discredit a subject by injecting all sorts of false and speculative material onto it is sooo 1960's. You've managed to include all the usual discrediting lines which have nothing to do with the actual main point:


Play the man and not the ball, shoot the messenger not the message. Tick

Bring in Anti Antisemitism and holocaust denial. Tick

Dismiss people who practice their right to free speech as 'nutty' if you don't agree with them. Tick

Call people who wish to practice their right to hold their government accountable "wild eye conspiracy theorists"

I'm surprised you didn't throw in wild accusations of raving homophobia and bestiality as well.If you don't realise that large banking institutions often do indeed cause the collapse and debt enslavement of smaller economies and you believe B'nai B'rith hold any moral high ground I would recommend that you do some more research.

Going back to the point. Any single link is meant to further convey the point. The point can be conveyed by using countless other links and sites of course but people's time is limited. However, here are some more for you if you have the time to check them all.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39579.htm

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/world-domination/

http://www.voltairenet.org/article182428.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38956.htm

http://www.rferl.org/content/was-yanukovychs-ouster-constitutional/25274346.html

More importantly, if you can show that the Kiev coup was democratic and constitutional and that the shelling of innocent civilians in Eastern Ukraine isn't a war crime then please do so.

Thor SonofOdin

Hello Cymro, I discuss this on Norwegian news pages a lot, and all that agree with your views tend to use gmlobalresearch.ca as the main source of their "facts". The man behind this website is a very well educated Canadian, who has Russian Jewish parents, which might give a clue to him not necessarily be to objective in his views. I am quoting a little bit on from Wikipedia about him ( I know Wiki is not the best source, but its late and I had not save the english links, and this is the quickest to find). His name is Michel Chossudovsky and he does not come around as someone I would put to much trust in when it comes to the Ukranian crises. "At the time of the Kosovo war, Mike Karadjis accused Chossudovsky of setting out a 'meticulous frame-up', 'full of half-truths, assumptions, and innuendoes about the Kosovo Liberation Army's alleged use of drug money', seeking to discredit the KLA.[12]In his book Bosnia, Kosova, and the West, Chossudovsky is referred to as a noted 'apologist for the Milošević regime'.[13]

A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." B'nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum that questioned how many Jews died in the Holocaust. Website editor Michel Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[14] The same article also reported that B'nai B'rith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa (Chossudovsky's former employer) asking for the university "to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site."[14]

Terry O'Neill, in the Western Standard included Chossudovsky on the list of "Canada's nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues";[15] criticizing Chussodovsky's thesis and views — that the U.S. had knowledge of the September 11 attacks before they happened; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and lastly, that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies — as "wild-eyed conspiracy theories".[15]"

Cymro

You're baffled!?? With the greatest of respect to you for engaging in a discussion, the inability of yourself and almost all MP's to realise what the US and Nato's aims in the Ukraine and the larger region are, is not only baffling but very worrying.

We should not have to take sides - both Putin and Obama are obviously no angels but in the interest of consistency you have heard of Obama's daily drone kill list and his executive orders that ignore the constitution I take it? Has he closed down Guantanamo bay yet? You do remember Libya and the 15,000 civilians murdered by Nato in the bombing of Sirte? Does John Kerry and Hilary look and sound like sane people to you? Etc etc, on and on it goes.

In regards to the legality of the Kiev government, I'm afraid you are incorrect. This to me is the important leveler in all of this.

I apologise for including another link but this one might help to shed some light. I'll copy what I believe is the most important paragraph from the article:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-americas-doublethink-recourse-to-international-law-in-support-of-an-illegal-neo-nazi-government/5371633

"...most important, is the fact that the putsch government in Kiev is absolutely illegal under international law. Yanukovich, whatever negative things could be said about him and his government (and there are many), was never defeated in a democratic election. Rather, he was chased out of the country by a violent mob that has now been consecrated by the much touted “international community” (read US-EU-NATO) as the recognized government. This is a blatant violation of Ukraine’s Constitution, not to mention international law and the accepted principles of modern democracy. With Yanukovich having taken refuge in Russia, and still being the legal President of Ukraine, isn’t it fair to say that Russia is acting as the guarantor of international law, rather than its enemy?"

Paul Flynn

Cymro, I am baffled by your view on Ukraine. The present Government in Kiev and the President were democratically elected. The referendum in Crimea was rigged with a question that was framed so that no-one could vote to oppose it. In a democrat election in Crimea a candidate stood on a platform of reunion with the Russian Federation. He got 4% of the vote.
Putin has a dreadful record with small nations including Chechnya, Georgia, South Ossetia. No wonder the Baltic States see NATO as their only defence.

Paul Flynn


Thanks for the second message.
The world has become a very dangerous. We were all shocked by the murders at the Young Labour Party camp by a right-wing lunatic. Its hard to believe that there Cardiffians born and bred who are militant muslims demanding Sharia law on the streets of Cardiff. Even more alarming that at least two have enlisted with ISIL. A young generation that has been richly endowed with material wealth still campaign against poverty - in the third world maybe but not in our rich western world.
Hope our paths cross some time.


Paul Flynn

01633 262 348/ 020 7219 3478/ 0788 792 5699

Twitter: @paulflynnmp
www.paulflynnmp.co.uk

Thor SonofOdin

Thank you for the response Paul. I heard on the NNN facebook group that the masked communists was Norwegian, but I wasnt sure what to believe as they more or less in the same place was calling me a "Troll". I am rather surprised that it is true, as I do not have any knowledge of anyone that is extreme communists there, we do have a party called "Red", but with way less then 1% of the voters behind them its much more common with neo nazi style parties there, as we even have one of them in government now. I have seen lots of neo nazis covering their faces in Norway though, and comming from a small place I also know rather many racists, or at least they were so when I grew up. I guess every country harbours fanatics of any kind though. I must say that I have become scared the last years though, as I see so much hatred among people, probably because tv and newspapers get to talk to people from all places in sosiety. It started of with the riots in London a few years ago, and also with the incident in Norway were we had a fanatic extremist muslim hater, that blew up a bomb and also shot over 70 youths from the labour party youth camp. Seing interviews with people around London was scary, as they were talking about armed revolts and things, and the same in Norway where people who are among the one having the best lives in the world with regards to social things, work, money and so on, dare to complain and say that they understand why he killed all those young kids, although they do not agree with his actions. The more people get, the more they will want it seems like. They claim poverty in Norway, and still they own houses, have 2 cars, tv in each room, consolles for each of the kids, and never go hungry. It is scary to see how they have become. This is mostly people my age, and I knew their parents, people who worked their way from nothing up to being well of (not rich), and these people that moan all the time, was born into having enough money, and just want more and more. Having a rant here and going of topic :) It would be nice to meet you at some point yes, as I do love talking a bit politics and not to many are interested :) We have been lucky with our armed forces as we have managed to stay away from active battle, but then we dont have many soldiers in Norway that are actually trained for that. It is basically the "Telemark bataljon" that have this training, as we have military service (conscription?) in Norway, and this means most soldiers have just a basic training, and have this purely for defence of Norway
(URLs automatically linked.)

Paul Flynn

Dear Thor, further to my previous reply. I have visited Norway and send the splendid work your armed forces do in international aid. This 'soft power' is also what the UK does best. Unfortunately we have stayed into deadly, expensive avoidable wars by opting for 'hard power.'

Paul Flynn


Many thanks for that.

There were fellow countrymen/women of your in the Red Block at the Peace Camp. I tried to find some common ground with them as a veteran protester. It was hopeless. They were here to be arrested and nothing would stop that. They had no message.
The Peace Movement has a problem.
Hope I meet you soon.


Paul Flynn


Twitter: @paulflynnmp
www.paulflynnmp.co.uk

Thor SonofOdin

I forgot a little thing also that is important, as they claim it has been a peaceful protest. There has been about 100 people in the tents in Tredegar Park, and out of these I believe 9 people have been arrested (4 was being nasty to a police barricade, 1 played "King of the Castle in Cardiff, and 4 started of by arresting themselves in Barclays, and was then taken to proper accomodation :) ) This means that almost 10% of the attendees has been arrested, so I guess Pippa finally got some big numbers to brag about, as not even Chicago, 2 years ago can brag about have 10% of them being arrested......

Thor SonofOdin

Hello Paul, I am a Norwegian that have now lived in Pill, Newport for almost 11 years. When I heard about the peace protesters coming here, I did not like it at all, as I live 10 metres from the c"camping" site they wanted. I took time of work to go to the meeting in Pill Mill, and was amazed that something good came out of it, as it all seemed like a complete waste of time having the meeting, as it basically was the peace protesters and the council doing their dirty laundry in public. I do not know who you are, but mentioned your name to my "newportian" wife last night, and although not interested in politics she said you were a good man and a good politician. I just want to let you know that you are not alone in your oppinions, and that you will get my support in the future, as our views on this subject is basically identical. I have been on the NNN facebook page trying to discuss several things, and to try and give a different point of view to people, but then me, and all others that did not agree with them was banned, and had all our posts removed. I then got a new facebook account and asked why they were protesting for freedom of speech, with their attitude towards it. I have told them many times what you also say, that they should not brag about 100 organisations supporting them, as their cause is no to nato, not no to council tax because all our politicians are communists, as one of them claims ( I bet Nigel Farage will be surprised to be told he is a communist at least :) ). I do not understand how they can have Ukrainian people in the demonstration wanting Russia to leave Ukraine alone, and have masked pro russian communists in the same protest. I also find it very scary how they allow something called "anarchistactionnetwork" post a link about the importance of being masked during protests, and what it boils down to is that you should be masked so as the police can not single out the ones that really need to hide their faces (the "important" people, namely the professional protester or "rentamob" as some people have called them). Keep up the good work Paul :)

Cymro

I only wish I could agree with you on this Mr Flynn. Unfortunately all the evidence demonstrates that this was a US, EU backed coup to install their puppet leaders in to the Kiev government. The current presidency doesn't have constitutional legitimacy and is therefore illegal. That is not a good basis from which to dictate any morality.

The choice isn't between Putin and Obama but between wrong and right, lawful or unlawful, moral or immoral.

As regards to the far left extremists and the lack of tolerance of freedom of speech by a number of them (unless you agree with them of course) I would have to agree with you. The communist group that turned as well as the other Marxist anarchist types does not do any good to the image of reasoned effective political protest - in fact I would argue it's disastrous and a massive step back. Why anyone would want to endorse a murderous doctrine that led to the murder of upwards of 100 million people in the last century alone, and promotes the removal of individual and property rights is beyond me.

Paul Flynn

Diolch Cymro. I read the article but I believe it is profoundly mistaken. If the choice is between Putin and Obama, I know which is the best bet for a peaceful outcome. This is Putin of Abkhazia, South Ossetia, & Chechnya fame who routinely murders his own citizens who challenge him. The Magnitsky's case make the blood run cold.

This blog is to warn of the degradation of any coherent peace movement. I would claim to be part of that but fanatical extremist try to silence me. Pippa's press release urges my de-selection as one of the few consistent voices of sanity in the Commons on military matters.

The whole No to NATO Newport protest made no favourable impression on public opinion. It was a wasted chance.

Cymro

Mr Flynn,

You are an intelligent and respected politician but it is your duty to try and delve further into what is happening in the world. We are being pushed into a very dangerous global position by puppet leaders who have sold out their countries to psychopathic warmongers and corporate interests. Wales and the rest of the world's countries has to realise what these conspiracy facts happening are. Please take a look at this article:

http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/all-eyes-on-natos-gathering-in-wales.html

Paul Flynn

Deleted one post because it was off-message and untrue. Denying a lie often gives greater currency to an untruth. The point of this blog is give a platform for intelligent conversation.

Paul Flynn

Thanks Ad. Agree with much of that. Anyone who says 'No to Nato' should explain this to the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians - small nations like Wales. NATO is their only hope of staying independent countries.

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Obama has created less enemies for us in Britain than Bush. But we can't assume Britain's foreign policy MUST echo Washington. What the secretive point of their foreign policy IS is a secret only guessed at. And its formation usually involves a good many best described as murderers in disguise.

Words for these people result in untold death and violence. So it is important to both play that game and also play it correctly, after all there is a lot at stake.

I've no doubt that Obama for example has presided over a government and intelligence/ military establishment which has seen fit to murder perfectly innocent people.

Perhaps at the NATO conference they encouraged eachother not towards a brighter world of passionate, compassionate and respectful diplomacy but instead towards hypocrisy and ensnaring nations which are deemed expendable for a false ideology which covers a very real one.

They need to bear in mind that they are not so important. What they ARE is extremely privileged to a degree without precedent. Words are what they deliver and placate us with, but we should flee from professionally engineered soundbites. THEIR words not ours

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