Uncorrected transcript
Q723 Paul Flynn: You are opposed to the suggestion that an inspector general should be appointed to oversee all aspects of the intelligence services. Why?
Sir Mark Waller (Security Commisioner): It would certainly depend on precisely what you had in mind by an inspector general. If it was simply to say we will have one person doing the job that is Sir Anthony May and I do, I do not see the point of that because you have two judges doing the work. Therefore, it would seem to me, if it just going to be one, combining them. If you are going to say, “Well, no, it is not that; I want somebody who is not a judge to have a big organisation with lots of people who are going to go into the agencies and do everything”, first you have to find the right people.
Secondly, you may be doing something that has lost one of the key features of the way it operates now, i.e. you no longer have the agencies saying, “Oh my goodness me, a senior judge may read this”. I think you will lose something and I query whether you gain anything. The bureaucracy that would be built up and the amount of time that you would take with the agencies when they are meant to be doing a job, which is protecting the country, I query: is that a gain? I doubt it.
Q724 Paul Flynn: The role of MPs includes the solemn duty now of declaring war and deciding when we join conflicts. The result of our recent decisions has been the loss of 628 British lives. In 2003 we were misinformed by the security services and the ISC on the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In 2006 we were also misinformed on the likelihood that there would be no shots fired in the Helmand Province. Two members of the Committee were told directly that Britain was not involved with the rendition of prisoners and we know now that this was a lie and we were, as a nation, complicit with torture by Gaddafi, among others. Don’t you think, in those circumstances, when there has been a history of misinformation supplied to MPs, we need to change the system and put someone else in charge?
Chair: If you could address the general point rather than specific “when did the war start” issue.
Sir Mark Waller: I can’t say any more. I do not believe that putting in place an inspector general with a lot of bureaucracy and taking up—remember, resources are finite. You take up a lot of time at the agencies when they are trying to do the things that they want to do. I just do not believe—
Q725 Paul Flynn: You seem to be supportive of the recent history and I am telling you, as a Member of Parliament, that I and all other Members of Parliament were misinformed or lied to on these most important matters and we took those decisions to send young men and women to their deaths on the basis of misinformation, mistakes or actual lies. In those circumstances, how can you feel so complacent about the status quo?
Sir Mark Waller: I think it is very unfair to say that I am complacent. I certainly am not complacent. I go in with a complete lack of complacency. I go in and examine as hard as I can. I am very doubtful whether some of what you are saying would be caught even by a large inspector bureaucracy and I am not complacent. I just worry that you will lose something by having a more bureaucratic inspector. That is all I am worried about.
Q726 Paul Flynn: The Intelligence Security Committee is nominated by the Prime Minister and it is a creature of Government and it had a record of being complicit with Government decisions. Surely there is a better way and the Members of Parliament need someone to represent their interests and the interests of the country generally, rather than being an arm of Government and a poodle committee that does what Government tells them to do.
Sir Mark Waller: I do not think the ISC now just is a poodle. The ISC is now a parliamentary committee. You could criticise the system previously on the basis it was just a Prime Minister-appointed body, but it is now a parliamentary committee and it does a great deal in terms of investigation and so on.
Chair: Mr Flynn does not mean to cast aspersions on those who sit on the Committee, but I think the point he is making is that it is not elected by the House. It is appointed by the Prime Minister.
Q727 Paul Flynn: Who do you think should inform MPs before we take these decisions? When we have a debate on a possible crisis at the moment, when it is not impossible that we might be called on to take military action, who do we believe?
Chair: This may be slightly beyond your remit, but it is very helpful for Mr Flynn to ask.
Sir Mark Waller: I am afraid it is. Don’t worry, I can understand. I am not not understanding. I just do not think I can help.
Chair: Thank you. That is very helpful and we accept that answer.
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