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August 22, 2010

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Air Force Ones

Dear, please remeber that don't miss your smile forever!

Kay Tie

"'Target poor'?"

An infamous phrase complaining that airstrikes in Afghanistan were pointless because everything had already been blown up, but that Iraq had plenty left to destroy.

HuwOS

LOL

I'm with 100% on this DG.

D.G.

"I share Clegg's judgement on the war, But it's a foolish comment for an acting PM"

So if you were to become acting PM Paul, you wouldn't express your views any more?

Huw - please bear this in mind next time we have that discussion about whether it makes a difference who you vote for...

Ad

Fair enough. I don't think you can describe these millions of protestors in a democratic country as powerless though. It is an excuse used often enough by people saying one should ignore these wars. The fact that the demonstration against the Iraq war took place is enough for some people to say 'hey I did my bit', and perhaps keep voting for the same party and candidates that started the war.

As Huw said hundreds of thousands lost their lives and millions more have been left devastated. I think it will ultimately go down in history as a terrible war crime. You either accept this or not and act accordingly. The scale of anger and protest should only have grown amongst public opinion, the media and political opponents given how the war turned out to be such a disaster.

Patrick

"A march/ demonstration does not directly affect or influence the ruling class behaviour. To say 'I marched, they did it anyway, I tried at least' is missing the whole point."

I was saying that the march (a clear sign that the public did not want the war) was just another aspect that the government chose to ignore.


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Patrick '-Millions of people around the world marching against the invasions legality were ignored ,insignificant ,and powerless'

It does however provide a show of strong opinion and an opportunity for a get togeather of like minds. It is something that can then be reffered to were millions of people had decided these wars were unnaceptable.

A march/ demonstration does not directly affect or influence the ruling class behaviour. To say 'I marched, they did it anyway, I tried at least' is missing the whole point.

Ad

'Well, Afghanistan was "target poor" so what else was there to do?'

'Target poor'?

Kay Tie

"-The USA had to punish another country for 9/11"

Well, Afghanistan was "target poor" so what else was there to do?

patrick

"Future generations will want to know why these things happened and why we didn't stop them, I have no idea what any of us will be able to say to them."

Because

-The USA had to punish another country for 9/11

-The USA had to have another war to keep it's millitary/Industrial machine lubricated

-Millions of people around the world marching against the invasions legality were ignored ,insignificant ,and powerless

-Bush and Blair are about as conscientious as
drug dealers selling heroin to kids

etc............................

HuwOS

"Huw tells me that these freedom ideas are of the Left" - KayTie

I also keep telling you that the modern Labour party is not on the left, but you fail to grasp that, despite the last 13 years of them continuing the failed right wing, free market, light touch regulation policies that the Tories introduced.

Everybody also tells Paul his Milliband is not of the left either and he fails to grasp that, which is saddening as Paul tends to grasp a lot more than you KayTie.

However, the Iraq war was not probably illegal Paul, it was definitely and obviously illegal.
That it will never be declared illegal by the perpetrators who also happen to have the power to block the only body that could declare it illegal officially does not change the reality.

It was an act of international terrorism that vastly overshadowed the horrendous crime that occurred in 2001.
It demeaned and dishonoured the victims of that crime and the citizens of all western nations not to mention bringing horrors to the people of Iraq, whose lives were lost in the hundreds of thousands and for those who didn't die, for millions of them their lives and livelihoods were ruined.

And of course, the invasion Afghanistan was also immoral and wrong, if not technically illegal and we have imposed on them the equivalent of a 9/11 each year since 2001.

Future generations will want to know why these things happened and why we didn't stop them, I have no idea what any of us will be able to say to them.

Kay Tie

"Our annual conference will be the coronation of a very bright new leader with fresh ideas."

Fresh ideas like taxes to make pips squeak, an incomes policy, common ownership of the means of production, exchange controls, an industrial policy forged in the white heat of technology, blah blah blah. The Labour Party are the true conservatives now, yearning for a bygone era with old failed ideas.

True new ideas for Labour would be a citizens basic income, a flexible personal education system, a proper constitution with protection for personal freedom (including legalizing drugs). Huw tells me that these freedom ideas are of the Left, but I don't see any of this thinking in Labour.

Rich

Surely it's a good thing if criminals are exposed to being charged? We wouldn't want criminals to get away with it, would we?

Paul Flynn

Yes, The Iraq war was probably illegal. Top military brass were worried about the possibility of a war crime before the UK joined Bush's War. When an acting PM makes that statement he exposes all those involved to possible charges.
Clegg made his comment as acting PM. He did not plan to say and it was a serious mistake which diminished his stature and devalued his performance. His remarks should have been guarded, he should not have indulged in trotting out the first thing that came into his head regardless of the consequences. He did badly at PMQs

Patrick

Clegg's remark's were honest and what i believe to be true.

If we go down the road of putting the considerations of our lawyers before countless death's from all sides then he is guilty as charged.

Clegg should be commended for attacking Straw , Blair, and the vile people that backed such an international obscenity.

HuwOS

The idea, that the speaking of the truth about a matter of importance is foolish,
where lives were involved and where lives were both taken and lost as a result of lies and where lives are still being lost as a result of those lies,
speaks volumes about why we are, where we are.

HuwOS

The idea, that the speaking of the truth about a matter of importance,
where lives were involved and where lives were both taken and lost as a result of lies and where lives are still being lost as a result of those lies,
speaks volumes about why we are, where we are.

Paul Flynn

I share Clegg's judgement on the war, But it's a foolish comment for an acting PM

HuwOS

Clegg's view on the Iraq war was known before and during the election, is it a political thing, to be surprised that it didn't change the moment he was in government?

His view is that it was illegal.
Which it was.

Your idea that his voicing of his correct view made our troops liable to charges of war crimes is a joke.
Firstly, the people who put them in that position are the ones who made them liable to them.
Secondly, the only body that could rule that what we all know was an illegal war, was an illegal war is the UN security council, on which the two prime perpetrators sit and hold a veto.
So unless you know something we don't and the US are now about to declare the Iraq war illegal themselves and the UK are going to not veto such a resolution then there is little chance of anyone being held accountable for this crime, never mind the soldiery who just followed orders.

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