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July 12, 2010

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Novoline knacken

Heftig, ich habe niemals für möglich gehalten, dass das in der Realität so funktionieren könnte :)

Kaufen Sustanon

Das ist wirklich mein Problem gelst, danke!

herunterladen Forex Megabot FREI

Pois e realmente um programa maravilhoso ver o desfile de 20 de setembro em Piratini. Em 2007 eu fui pela primeira vez assisti-lo e fiquei emocionada, e um desfile muito lindo feito com alma por cada um daqueles gauchos que la vivem. Vale a pena.

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'It called him a Hero of the Left. Either political prisoners are a hallmark of the Left, or the worship of Fidel is idiocy. I believe the former: an unchecked Left slides into all the horror of Stalin and Mao, and as we see unfolding before our eyes in Venezuela.'

As Huw said, American's are keeping political prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Around about the same number which Cuba holds as political prisoners. A hundred or so.

Castro did in fact kick out a brutal American backed dictator and has withstood American aggression through hundreds of terrorist attacks and economic sabotage. Cuba has maintained a favourable human rights record in comparison to America and all of the Latin American dictatorships backed by the US. You know all those countries America felt threatened by when its people had democratically elected left wing governments.

'I believe the former: an unchecked Left slides into all the horror of Stalin and Mao, and as we see unfolding before our eyes in Venezuela.'

So what is your problem with Venezuela? I imagine Chavez is setting himself up as some kind of perpetual leader or moves to that extent? Well it wasn't so long ago that America supported an attempted coup, and has repeatedly vilified him. So if he, like Castro, can withstand the attacks of the American elite then I applaud him for that. That said it isn't an ideal situation, but compare it to the actions of America and Britain and I don't think you can easily assume the moral high ground.

What would an 'unchecked' right resemble then? America and Britain's Iraq debacle?

Kay Tie

"Your desire to attack those who are not us with barely the faintest hint of criticism"

That's nonsense. I've deplored the behaviour of the US many times. You may like to debate with your baby-eating caricatures, but they aren't me.

Kay Tie

"As far I remember Kay Tie I signed an EDM congratulating Castro on his birthday not commending him for sainthood"

It called him a Hero of the Left. Either political prisoners are a hallmark of the Left, or the worship of Fidel is idiocy. I believe the former: an unchecked Left slides into all the horror of Stalin and Mao, and as we see unfolding before our eyes in Venezuela.

Paul Flynn

As far I remember Kay Tie I signed an EDM congratulating Castro on his birthday not commending him for sainthood

HuwOS

"In the greater scheme of things, they are quite mild at war mongering, torture and murder"

Compared to who, Cuba?
Who has Cuba invaded?
Was it the Cubans who ran the School of the Americas now renamed as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation?
Have they poured fortunes into toppling democratic governments and supporting dictators, funding and harbouring terrorists or kidnapping people from all over the world and imprisoning them without justification in an area of Cuba they control, but which they believed would not be accountable under any laws neither international nor their own.

You ask why I am so anti U.S?
As usual, you demonstrate the inability to even recognise what the question should be.

Are Cubans the allies we stand shoulder to shoulder with or the U.S.?
Whose actions have we been and do we continue to support?
Which actions are we responsible for?

We are by choice allied to the US, and while we are, even if we were otherwise pure as the driven snow (which we are not) then they are us and their crimes are ours.

When illegal, immoral, violent and murderous acts are carried out by the States are they doing it in the name of principles alien to us or that we believe in and claim to hold important?
Like Liberty, Truth, Justice, Democracy.

Either those things are important to us or they are not, the only explanation for anyone to constantly attack those who are not us and defend those who are, is that they are driven by tribal loyalty above all else and certainly far above those principles that I believe to be important and that I believe to be central to majority of people in the western world.

So while you happily downplay US crimes and massively oversell Cuba's as if it would even be reasonable to compare Cuba to the long established western style country, why not compare it to Haiti, which is much more the US administrations cup of tea.
How does it stack up then?

No one would deny that Cuba has ground to make up, but compared to many countries with a similar background and certainly ahead of any under similar intimidation and threat from a superpower it has done fairly well.
It also is hard to criticise behaviours that we would like to criticise if another player is causing havoc and creating a lot of bigger problems itself. If we don't address those, we are not being fair or even handed.

So we might well criticise those who are not us and try to encourage them to value those things we value and indeed we should with any and all, even handedly.

But allowing those who are us, to trash those values, to undermine and destroy them, means they don't matter a bit to us, except to use as a stick to beat those who we define as not being part of our tribe.

Quite apart from the fact that while your opposition to Cuba's governance helps to feed your anti-socialist propaganda and allows you to indulge your indignation, Cuba is not a threat to the world but the US is.
They have demonstrated that threat over and over again since the 1950's and continue to do so.


People regularly demand of Muslims that they distance themselves from extremists, so much so that we are, at times, not willing to let them speak until they do so but apparently some do not feel that we should ever need to do so.
While I have no liking for any religion I imagine that demand, to most Muslims must seem to them to be the same complete nonsense that we would find a demand to distance ourselves from extremist democracy advocates.

The US administration are not extremist democracy advocates, they claim to promote democracy but we know they don't, we recognise that what they say is not valid
and we can demonstrate that, by being clear about what we are not willing to accept from people claiming the same values as us.

We as individuals, residents, citizens,subjects or whatever have a job to do, and that job is to hold OUR government to account, then those we choose to associate ourselves with and identify ourselves with. I imagine, with you, if it's a job that doesn't pay anything at all you probably don't value it.

Your desire to attack those who are not us with barely the faintest hint of criticism and a great deal of amelioration for those who are us is pure simple minded tribalism, which should rightly be despised by all.

Britain should do with the US what Paul should have done with New Labour and what any decent person should also do with the Tories, best expressed in this.

"'Twas an evening in October, I'll confess I wasn't sober,
I was carting home a load with manly pride,
When my feet began to stutter and I fell into the gutter,
And a pig came up and lay down by my side.
Then I lay there in the gutter and my heart was all a-flutter,
Till a lady, passing by, did chance to say:
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses,"
Then the pig got up and slowly walked away."

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'I never said dictatorship implies socialism, I said socialism implies dictatorship. You can get dictatorship through other routes too. I think we should avoid all of them.'

As I said plenty of western democratic governments have described themselves as socialist and implemented socialist programs or policies. For instance people might want an NHS, graduated taxation and a minimum wage. They might also want legalisation of drugs.

You use terms like socialism to mean whatever suits your fundamentalist views. Hence the dogmatic and simplistic statements like ‘socialism implies dictatorship’. Even the term ‘libertarian’ has many different connotations and different meanings associated with it. I.e. Anarcho-Capitalism, Libertarian Socialism, Neoliberal.


Kay Tie

"Oh, well I didn't realise they had been illiberal, I thought they were war mongers, instigators of torture and bloody handed murderers."

In the greater scheme of things, they are quite mild at war mongering, torture and murder. Let's face it, the USA is a bit of a weed when it comes to large scale wars (think Iran/Iraq war). And by torture standards, it's pretty second rate compared to (say) Saudi Arabia.

Take a step back and ask yourself why you are so anti-US: is it truly because of torture and war mongering? Because if that is your metric, there are others more deserving of your anger.

Is it because the USA is ostensibly free and a "good guy" and therefore should be held to higher standards? For me, yes, that's the reason for my revulsion.

My use of the word "illiberal" was because the US is now turning on its own citizens, rather than the more typical being-horrible-to-foreigners-abroad MO. Which indicates to me that it's reaching a turning point: when a government turns on its own people they've crossed a line.

Kay Tie

"It is you with your fundamentalist outlook that can’t seem to realise that a dictatorship restricting freedoms or abusing people does not indicate that left wing policies or ideas require people to be ‘crushed under authoritarianism’."

I never said dictatorship implies socialism, I said socialism implies dictatorship. You can get dictatorship through other routes too. I think we should avoid all of them.

HuwOS

"Do you really think I support the extremely illiberal acts of Bush and Obama?"

Illiberal?

Oh, well I didn't realise they had been illiberal, I thought they were war mongers, instigators of torture and bloody handed murderers.

Now you say they may be illiberal as well?
Please do tell.

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‘It's a consequence of socialism that people are crushed under authoritarianism - they cannot be permitted choice, and so they cannot be permitted freedom. People aren't even allowed to flee, and dissidents are jailed.

No, it is a consequence of dictatorships. Plenty of democratically elected governments have instigated left wing policies without requiring a revolution, restriction of free expression etc.

‘It is also an unfortunate effect of the intellectually sterile thought processes on the Left that somehow if one is against wicked acts in socialist countries one must be in favour of wicked acts in free ones. Do you really think I support the extremely illiberal acts of Bush and Obama?’

Huw’s point as I understood it was that that there are many countries which have violated human rights, including the United States. It is you with your fundamentalist outlook that can’t seem to realise that a dictatorship restricting freedoms or abusing people does not indicate that left wing policies or ideas require people to be ‘crushed under authoritarianism’.

Kay Tie

"So, what are you saying KayTie, that Cuba is ahead of the US on the treatment of prisoners who are guilty of no illegal activity?"

It's a consequence of socialism that people are crushed under authoritarianism - they cannot be permitted choice, and so they cannot be permitted freedom. People aren't even allowed to flee, and dissidents are jailed.

And yet there the useful idiots who apologise for the inevitable brutality, pretend that somehow that the place is a paradise. So this brutal man, Fidel Castro, is eulogised by fools.

It is also an unfortunate effect of the intellectually sterile thought processes on the Left that somehow if one is against wicked acts in socialist countries one must be in favour of wicked acts in free ones. Do you really think I support the extremely illiberal acts of Bush and Obama?

HuwOS

So, what are you saying KayTie, that Cuba is ahead of the US on the treatment of prisoners who are guilty of no illegal activity?

Oh sorry, your statements and stances are only ever ideologically based despite your immense ignorance on most subjects.

My apologies, carry on with your pretence at having any underlying moral views.

Here have a Blair award.

Kay Tie

I'm surprised you haven't reported on the Hero of the Left in Cuba, given your signing of an EDM praising the man.

Apart from the recent wise words of the Great Man, Cuba is also releasing 52 political prisoners. I am sure that they are so pleased that they live in a Socialist Paradise: I expect they are very grateful for their wonderful healthcare.

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