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March 26, 2010

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patrick

"No KayTie, Elin Jones is Plaid Cymru. All four Plaid Cymru MPs voted against the hunting ban."

I made the mistake of saying Elin Jones was labour.

The wider point was that the Welsh Assembly badger cull was backed by 43 - 9 votes in favour including 'kind-hearted' Mr Rhodri Morgan.

Paul Flynn

No KayTie, Elin Jones is Plaid Cymru. All four Plaid Cymru MPs voted against the hunting ban.

Proof that the ban is working is in today's Independent. The blood sports fanatics are about to spend a fortune backing the Tories in the coming election. If the ban was not hurting they would not bother.

The plan for battery reared cattle was fully discussed at the public meeting I called - as was many oter aspect of animal cruelty.

Kay Tie

"Foxhunting takes place every week, proving that this legislation is not worth the paper it's written on"

There are thousands, literally thousands, of laws passed by this government that are stupid and unenforceable ("glorifying terrorism" being just one). MPs as a class have been negligent, more interested with self-enrichment than scrutinising legislation. That's the overarching problem.

Kay Tie

"there was an article just recently of a proposal for battery chicken type setup for milk production using cows .. "

Euw. Well I won't be partaking in any produce from that. Disgusting. There had better be labelling rules so I can tell..

Tony

Actually while I'm here, did you see the pledges for the election from GB?

Well, thats fairly wide ranging and the measures are a little looser than '97

..have to say I still can't see much to choose between Tories and Labour. They both want to 'ring fence' the NHS spending when productivity in terms of patient outcomes has gone down in the last two year s..

Tony

Kay Tie - there was an article just recently of a proposal for battery chicken type setup for milk production using cows ..
So I think cruelty to animals comes in many forms..

patrick

Chris
"The Tories want to re-legalise cruelty for entertainment and would roll us back many years."

Here we go again, labour 'banned' hunting giving music to the ears of all the animal rights campaigners.

The net result is that foxhunting has never been so well attended , so popular, and never have so many foxes been killed.

You (and Paul) are far more concerned about newspaper headlines and complacently backing ineffective legislation than about the present reality of ....
MORE WILDLIFE BEING DESTROYED.

If our concern is for 'wildlife' then we need effective legislation that actually stops hunting taking place.

Foxhunting takes place every week, proving that this legislation is not worth the paper it's written on, THE POLICE DO NOT STOP IT.

You cling to the fantasy that this is working and think we should worry about the Tories.

As hunting is thriving, how can the Tories make it worse?

Either we uphold this law , as i believe it was intended to be one, or we except that even when we ban foxhunting it will still continue regardless of petty party politics.

If you still feel the Tories are so evil and will support cruelty, i remind you of who is presently MURDERING BADGERS IN WEST WALES?
- Elin Jones Labour

No doubt Chris , you will ignore these points and continue to believe that hunting has stopped because New-lab told them to.

IT HAS NOT!

Kay Tie

"put cattle in huge sheds and milk them three times a day and they never see the light of day"

Do we? I thought that cows went and ate grass. Except in Winter, of course.

Chris Gale

Thanks for hosting the meeting Paul. The Tories want to re-legalise cruelty for entertainment and would roll us back many years.I think people are starting to see what they really stand for and its not pretty.

Tony

I undetstand the active dislike of the treatment of foxes by hunting - but it seems to me that if we can make this distinction and the proposal to put cattle in huge sheds and milk them three times a day and they never see the light of day - then what is more cruel?
Or chickens hung up side down and run through a coveyor belt to be electrocuted ?
If I thought this was a first step against the brutality of some of our animal husbandry then I could understand the anger about the potential reversal but I don;t get that sense at all.

Patrick

"The horror is allowing new Tory MPs to put the reforms into reverse."

Although i would never vote Tory as i have ethics , this statement is hypocritical.

Which party is at present snaring and gassing badgers in West Wales?

Ask Elin!

Patrick

It's interesting that whenever humans bother to engage in debate about animal cruelty it's usually circuses, foxhunting and pet cruelty.

It says far more about our species than the perpetrators of the highlighted crimes.
'Let's concentrate on any mammal with anthropomorphic tendencies, throw in some fake rage, and then continue our lives of overconsumption, habitat destruction, and pollution.'

'Let's all talk about circus lions or kitty's injuries from a drunken yobs size nine boot and meantime carry on our pretentious lives of destroying biodiversity.'

Our direct actions of driving cars, flying planes, buying soya, eating meat, using peat,timber,countless other high street products,introducing non-native species etc etc are causing species destruction at the fastest ever scientifically recorded rate.

I'm guilty of doing some of the above myself, this is the real crisis, not the social actions of the psychologically challenged.

HABITAT DESTRUCTION, POLLUTION, OVERHUNTING, OVERPOPULATION,INVASION OF NON-NATIVE SPECIES, CLIMATE CHANGE.

Even if we remove climate change, and say that it cannot be proven as linked to human activity, we can rest assured that we are responsible for the other five.

Very often the 'fluffy bunny people' that are most outraged about animal cruelty are the same ones that keep cats that kill everything in the garden, buy soya from deforested countries, drive polluting four tracks to Tesco, to buy factory farmed cheap chickens.

It's time to get real!

Paul Flynn

Thanks Huw. Progress to a compassionate civilised society has been impressive in my life. Accepted casual cruelty of 60 years ago is now outlawed. It's public revulsion that has caused circus animals to almost disappear. Even without a ban, there will none in the UK in a decade.

At tonight's meeting the news of animal cruelty as an indicator of spouse abuse is a practical piece of evidence of the link. Of course, there is no suggestion that all those insensitive to animal suffering are violent to human beings but I know of no exception to the rule that serial killers are all animal abusers.

HuwOS

Hurting or killing a family pet is not the same as killing other types of animal. Not because of the type of animal but because of the nature of the relationship which is understood by the term pet.
Pets are given a place as a member of the family, so it is hardly surprising that if someone is willing to torture one member of the family that they may well be willing to do it to another, regardless of species.

Most of us eat meat and wear leather.
Animals do have to die for these things, and we know it, paying someone else to do the killing does not actually put us in a different area in relation to the animal, although I suppose it could be considered more callous and uncaring.
Almost all of us live thoughtlessly off the deaths of animals and those few who don't are only here because their ancestors did.
Many if not people have at times been cruel to some animal whether by killing spiders or using back breaking traps for mice to laying down poison for others. There is as of this date no known or even posited correlation between those behaviours and serial killing or spousal abuse.

I am not in favour of fox hunting, but to make up pretend links to serious crimes is unjust and unfair.
The only similarity a foxes head has to ours is that its eyes are at the front as it is with all predators, unlike our foodstuff cows.

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