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October 24, 2009

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Kay Tie

"As the BNP are such a far left party , no doubt we will be seeing Galloway and Skinner standing for them at the next election."

Swans are white, these two birds are white, therefore they are swans. You need some lessons in logic, Patrick.

You seem to have difficulty with the BNP's racism somehow negating all its other policies. I don't understand why: the Soviet Union was anti-Semitic. There are plenty of examples of socialists being racist. Being left wing is defined by collective action imposed to eradicate individualism. It's time you stopped equating left wing with "virtuous" because you're deluding yourself.

Oh, by the way, I expect Galloway and Skinner would reach an accommodation with the BNP if it became powerful: they are socialists and so intentions of good ends would justify wicked means.

patrick

Kay Tie
As the BNP are such a far left party , no doubt we will be seeing Galloway and Skinner standing for them at the next election.
No doubt bob crow and Tony Benn will be out marching with them.
No doubt our blog host is a secret member and will be standing for Newport West as a BNP candidate.
It might have passed you by that Labour's idea of nationalisation did not depend on you having a certain skin colour.
You stated the BNP had far left connections and as usual have provided no evidence whatsoever.

Are you also a creationist?

HuwOS

"the Tory party describe it as right wing"

"No they don't:"

Gosh KayTie, Sayeeda Warsi, who was the Conservative choice as I am sure you know, to appear on Question Time to challenge Nick Griffin must not know this as she describes the BNP as being far right and facist.

Where?
In video on the Conservative party home page.
"It could go horribly wrong. There is experience in the past to show that when far right parties have had such political platforms their support has increased"

Someone should tell her, she has it completely wrong.
Feel free KayTie.

Adam

And the next paragraph Kay Tie?:

'What is more worrying for Labour is that this sentiment is shared by millions of voters, way beyond the ranks of BNP voters. Overall, 63 per cent of the British public think Labour used to care about their concerns – and only 19 per cent think it does today.

That is more amongst the overall population! That is a pretty leading question too. I imagine a lot of people who have never liked Labour would find themselves agreeing with that one. You do not know how many BNP voters voted for Labour in the past or how many have never voted before at all.


Kay Tie

"but one of social and community relations problems in towns like Bradford and Burnley with large Muslim populations."

.. where Labour votes were weighed, not counted. And now the BNP has huge support. From those voters. Live in your little fictional world of where BNP voters come from ("a Mummy BNP voter and a Daddy BNP voter who love each other very much get together..").

Of course, you could look at the studies into this, such as the one from the 32,000 voter YouGov poll where they specifically addressed the issue of where a BNP voter comes from (hint: not brought by a stork from 1933):

"But perhaps the most startling finding came when we tested anecdotal reports that many BNP voters were old Labour sympathisers who felt that the party no longer speaks up for them. It turns out to be true. As many as 59 per cent of BNP voters think that Labour "used to care about the concerns of people like me but doesn’t nowadays"."

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/who+voted+bnp+and+why/3200557

Kay Tie

"the Tory party describe it as right wing"

No they don't:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/8679468/Theres_nothing_Rightwing_about_the_BNP/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5311556/MPs-expenses-Lord-Tebbit-says-do-not-vote-Conservative-at-European-elections.html

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2009/06/the-bnp-is-not-the-far-right.html

Now Huw, time to cut the crap and tell me which right wing parties have policies of nationalising British industry. Come on, stop whining "Nick said this" and tell me whether you think a party that advocates nationalisation on a massive scale is LEFT or RIGHT. Which is it?

Adam

'Alas the worst of the working class movement has always been racist and misogynist (as a visit to one of the remaining Working Men's Clubs in the North will quickly remind).

This is why the BNP picks up votes in Old Labour heartlands like Blackburn, Burnley, Rotherham and Dewsbury.'

I was paraphrasing of course. Britain in the past was a more racist country. You are saying that no middle class or upper class institutions are or were racist?

Look Kay Tie, racism in a Conservative club!:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/281288.stm

You might conclude that the problem is not one of 'LABOUR VOTERS' but one of social and community relations problems in towns like Bradford and Burnley with large Muslim populations.

'When did people in Burnley vote Tory then? Face it, it's LABOUR VOTERS who are turning to the BNP.'

I've just challenged this in my last post and you have conveniently ignored it. You do not know which parties the BNP voters supported in the past or even if they have ever voted before.

HuwOS

KayTie, you really cannot be as dim as you pretend to be, it is not conceivable that you could operate a keyboard at all if it were the case.

Earlier in response to my statement
"The BNP is a right wing party, classified as being on the far right indeed and of course acknowledged as being by themselves and their supporters."
you commented
"Funny how it's always the left-wing commentators that call them that"
Of course you had to ignore the fact the party and its supporters claim to be right wing, but ignoring bits that don't suit you is your normal practice so we are used to it.
Your comment remained untrue of course, but afterwards it was blatantly clear that your comments were being made with the intention of being deceitful, dishonest and misleading.

The leader of the party describes it as right wing, the membership describe it as right wing the Tory party describe it as right wing as does every other grouping and the vast majority of everyone else.
For most people they would accept it as being the appropriate description only you KayTie in your paranoia and fanaticism would see that all as some left wing conspiracy.

The BNP is about race and inequality, that is all it is about, the racism makes it racist and the inequality makes it right wing any other policies that they might pretend to have can come and go whether they declared themselves for or against nationalisation or for or against the EU, they could pretend to any policy at all and still be recognisably the BNP, but the one unimaginable is that they would drop the race issue,
disguise it? yes;
conceal it? yes;
throw up smoke screen after smoke screen?
yes
but drop it? never.

By the way KayTie, we call the BNP racist even though its leader says it is not, not on the basis that it is the opposite of what he says but for the following reasons
1 - its policies are clearly racist
2 - He has made statements saying that their previously overt and aggressive racism remains but that they will use more moderate language in an attempt to get support.
In other words, KayTie, we call it racist because it is racist and we call it far right because it is far right.

As you say yourself, face facts.

You on the other hand follow the Margaret Thatcher school of thought thinking that words will mean what you want them to mean, not usage and not what anyone else says or does
Your own little uniqueness as patrick suggests is that everything you fear or hate is by definition left wing because you fear or hate it.

I must admit KayTie your pig headed obstinacy and stubborn stupidity at times infuriates me but most of the time I feel sorry for you as it seems that you live in a nightmare world where the boogeyman you name left wing is out to get you just around every corner.

Kay Tie

"he leader of the party understands it to be and describes it as right wing KayTie"

Yeah, and he says it's non-racist too. You don't believe him on the latter yet you're happy to take his word on the former.

You still haven't told me which far right parties believe in nationalising British industry. You believe in nationalisation, the BNP believes in nationalisation, no far-right parties I've ever heard of have it as a policy, so why do you cling to the words of Nick Griffin as gospel? Cast from the same socialist mould?

Face facts, Huw. The BNP's policies are left wing. Ergo it's a left wing party. If you don't like your fellow socialists much then you're just following a long-established pattern of falling out with comrades.

HuwOS

"Talking about "far right" misses the target because you won't understand the appeal it has to certain people."

People like Nick Griffin perhaps, whose introduction to the National Front was with his Tory councillor father who brought him to a meeting at the age of 15.(i)

The leader of the party understands it to be and describes it as right wing KayTie, once again you are attempting to argue a case without having any foundation to base your argument on.
The BNP is a racist party that has no need to do anything special to appeal to the right perhaps it is in the hope of manufacturing some appeal to people from the left pretends to have some socialist type policies because simply being racist would have no appeal to those on that side of the political spectrum.

After all it is a party that as with all right wing parties is about creating or maintaining inequalities, where your favoured political views are those based on maintaining or increasing financial inequalities or inequalities of opportunity the BNP's favoured inequality is that of race, specifically that non indigenous people (non whites) have or should have fewer rights than whites, or indeed no rights at all.

Writing about the BNP's first elected councillor, Milwall 1993 Griffin wrote
"The electors of Millwall did not back a post modernist rightist party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan "Defend Rights for Whites" with well-directed boots and fists"(ii)

The BNP right wing and racist, no matter how you slice it KayTie.

(i)http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1412785.stm
(ii)http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-so-has-anyone-really-been-islamified-against-their-will-1787816.html

Kay Tie

"I don't think profiling the typical BNP voter in terms of class is particularly helpful, anyway. "

I disagree. If people can't even understand that it's a racist form of socialism, a manifestation of frustration with the existing left, how can you counter it effectively? Talking about "far right" misses the target because you won't understand the appeal it has to certain people.

Kay Tie

"declaring that 'the working class are racist"

Never said that. I said the BNP draws its support from the racist working class.

Can you spot the logic error in this: "All swans are black, this bird is black, therefore it is a swan."

Yes? Good! So go back and apply that lesson to what I said and you inferred. See what you got wrong? Yes? Clever boy!

"socialism is evil'"

This, on the other hand, is precisely what I said. Socialism relies on coercion by definition. This inevitably leads to dictatorship (or the overthrow of socialism). The fact that the intentions behind socialism are good does not mitigate the wicked acts it ends up perpetrating.

DG

"What would it prove if we had answers to these questions?"

It would prove we'd lost the right to a secret ballot :P

I don't think profiling the typical BNP voter in terms of class is particularly helpful, anyway. Better to continue to challenge their ridiculous ideas wherever and whenever they present themselves, whether that's the Working Men's club or Parents Evening at the local private school.

Adam

'The BNP draws its support from Labour heartlands where there is negligible support for the Tories. The BNP secured two MEPs at the expense of Labour MEPs.'

Until 1997 the Conservatives regularly got about 30% of the general election vote in Burnley. This has fallen away to only 10% in 2005. I wouldn't call 30% negligible.

Besides, these constituencies are ones with economic and social difficulties and large Muslim minorities as Patrick said earlier. The BNP have played on 'islamification' and immigration concerns (amidst a recession), something which the overwhelmingly Tory tabloid press has never ceased to rage about.

Blackburn is similar in that the last election saw large falls in both Labour and Conservative votes and gains mainly for the Lib Dems. You will see falling election turnout in both of these constituencies.

Perhaps the majority of BNP voters had not voted previously. Perhaps some of those who voted for New Labour in 1997 were Conservative voters before that election. What would it prove if we had answers to these questions?

You are making baseless and weak arguments declaring that 'the working class are racist, socialism is evil' etc. This is really quite contemptible and superficial stuff which you are spouting Kay Tie.

Kay Tie

"anti-fascist, anti-racists and left groups"

Could you explain what a fascist is?

Rob

I was at the protest and it was a great success.
Don't think for one minute it wasn't necessary. I and others from the Swansea protest recognised some WDL supporters that had been in Swansea a week before.

They kept a VERY low profile, but they did come along to scout out the situation.
Without the great show of strength by anti-fascist, anti-racists and left groups, then we might well have seem a demonstration by WDL/EDL supporters.
As it was, they didn't want to risk another humiliation.
Well done Wales!!

No Pasaran!!!!

Kay Tie

"No KayTie, because the very briefest glance is enough to show your statement up as false."

Asserting this doesn't make it so. The BNP draws its support from Labour heartlands where there is negligible support for the Tories. The BNP secured two MEPs at the expense of Labour MEPs. Face facts, Huw, the left in this country is bigoted and hate-filled. You demonstrate this with your class warfare bile. The BNP taps into the same bigotry and directs it at gays and foreigners.

HuwOS

"Because the details betray your belief system. Sad."

No KayTie, because the very briefest glance is enough to show your statement up as false.
A fact you have acknowledged by presenting to back up your claim, no evidence whatsoever.

Are there working class racists, it would be bizarre if there were not, are labour voters more likely to be racist than voters for any other party, no they are not.

Is KayTie likely to make baseless and ludicrous claims at odds with sense and reality, yes she is. Does this mean everyone who is not left of centre is soft in the head, no it does not.

Kay Tie

"The BNP is a right wing party, classified as being on the far right"

Funny how it's always the left-wing commentators that call them that. Does nationalising industry make you right wing?

"in 2001 Labour got 49% of the vote and the BNP got 11%
in 2005 Labour got 39% of the vote and the BNP got 10% of the vote
"

You socialist thinking betrays your mathematics. It wasn't "Burnley" as a whole that voted like that, it was individual people. And lots of individual people voted for Labour and then switched to the BNP.

You hate this idea of racist working class, I know, but face facts: the BNP draws its support from racist Labour voters.

"I feel no pressing need to go into any more depth or detail."

Because the details betray your belief system. Sad.

patrick

Kay Tie
In the simplistic world of KT there lurks millitant leftist monsters. Anything remotely deemed dangerous, bad or even just unpopular must be part of this group.

Could you please let us know the actual links between the left wing and BNP?

Could this possibly be yet another fantasy statement?

HuwOS

People in Britain in the 50's and 60's were racist?
Goodness gracious KayTie, when will the revelations cease.

The BNP is a right wing party, classified as being on the far right indeed and of course acknowledged as being by themselves and their supporters.
Now you may look to many of their pretend policies and declare them left wing, but there seems to be little that you see in the world KayTie that you do not view as left wing, you even seem to think that New Labour are hard left so there is little point in arguing with you about what is or is not left wing.


"Alas the worst of the working class movement has always been racist and misogynist (as a visit to one of the remaining Working Men's Clubs in the North will quickly remind).

This is why the BNP picks up votes in Old Labour heartlands like Blackburn, Burnley, Rotherham and Dewsbury."

I picked one of the four areas you mentioned, the others might give different results but I haven't so much as looked to see, Burnley happened to be the first I looked at.

And as far as Burnley goes in the last 2 general elections,
in 2001 Labour got 49% of the vote and the BNP got 11%
in 2005 Labour got 39% of the vote and the BNP got 10% of the vote

Labour certainly lost a lot, but those lost Labour votes clearly did not go to the BNP.
The Lib Dems went up 8% of the vote between those two elections, so it would appear the disgruntled Labour voters went to the Lib Dems and none went to the BNP.

Like I say, perhaps it is different in the other areas you mentioned, or perhaps your point is about local rather than general elections but as you offered no specifics nor indeed any actual evidence and your statement as regards Burnley would appear to be at odds with reality I feel no pressing need to go into any more depth or detail.

Kay Tie

Excellent example of an ad hominem attack, Patrick. Why not answer the point: the BNP is an extreme left-wing party that advocates widespread nationalisation. Find it uncomfortable that you agree with the BNP?

patrick

Take no notice Robert it's only Kay Tie.

You see she grew up in a poor background then through education and personal ambition pulled herself up to become the loathesome ,anti-left, money loving person she now is.

Area's of the North-West of England happen to have a cocktail of high immigration, high unemployment , poor housing etc.

These conditions are rife for right wing parties to play the 'let's blame them' game.

"When did people in Burnley vote Tory then? Face it, it's LABOUR VOTERS who are turning to the BNP."

CONSERVATIVE voters in the south don't need too.


Kay Tie

"Ban on black bus drivers when was this, we have lots in Bristol."

You do now. You didn't in 1963. Thanks to the TGWU's 1955 resolution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Bus_Boycott,_1963

"How is it that you lot think being in labour is somehow BNP"

How is it that you think a party that promises to nationalise all industry is some how far-right? How much do you really know about the BNP?

"the Tories are the ones with contacts with the far right not labour"

When did people in Burnley vote Tory then? Face it, it's LABOUR VOTERS who are turning to the BNP.

"god what a lot of plain racist rubbish."

By throwing "racist" around as a petty insult you devalue the term. Stop being an idiot, go and read some history and try to educate yourself. If you stay stupid and left wing there's a danger you'll become a BNP voter.

robert

Ban on black bus drivers when was this, we have lots in Bristol.

How is it that you lot think being in labour is somehow BNP, the Tories are the ones with contacts with the far right not labour. god what a lot of plain racist rubbish.

Kay Tie

"the best traditions of the working class movement has always been multiracial"

Alas the worst of the working class movement has always been racist and misogynist (as a visit to one of the remaining Working Men's Clubs in the North will quickly remind).

This is why the BNP picks up votes in Old Labour heartlands like Blackburn, Burnley, Rotherham and Dewsbury. The trade unions have deep roots in this racist working class tradition, with the TGWU being instrumental in a ban on black bus drivers in Bristol.

Tony

Stand up to the bullies and racists and they tend to disappear ..

Ok , questiun time again

'Do you think its a good idea to predict that the recession will be over by Christmas ?'

Adamski

The square is named after John Frost, a Chartist leader in the 19th century. Three of the most famous Chartists leaders were two Irishmen, Fergus O'Connor and Bronterre O'Brien & the son of a West Indian slave, William Cuffay - a testimony that the best traditions of the working class movement has always been multiracial & shows that the racists have no knowledge of the history of people here.

Paul Flynn

Agree with some of that, Kay Tie. There has an over-reaction to the empty threats from a group of fantasists. One of the beneficial results is the unity in the past few days in Newport between factions who are not usually friendly towards each other.

Kay Tie

I think the racists have got you dancing to their tune. These silly "been here for 17,000 years" twerps will fade away in the end.

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