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September 27, 2009

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Adam

'Go on, take one more step from seeing Stalin as he was to seeing the East German communists as they were.'

Stalin and East Germany are not the same thing at all so why do make this connection? What do you mean by the 'East German communists as they where', which you demand we all recognise without actually saying what they where. I don't think that you have said anything of substance to justify your empty right wing rhetoric and your demands that everybody accept your nonsense views.

Kay Tie

"Amongst other things Stalin murdered 4 million people."

At last we see a socialist who doesn't apologise for Stalin. That's progress (if not progressive).

Actually, the comparison I am making is not with Stalin, but the Stasi and East Germany in the 1980s. And no, it's not hysterical exaggeration: the parallels are apt. The surveillance, the random nature of political policing, the attempt to crush 'unacceptable' thoughts (climate change denying being only the latest one). It's really not a massive leap of faith to see what this country would be like after another ten years of Labour. Only we'd be registering computers instead of typewriters.

Perhaps it's not that you don't see the parallels, it's that you don't see the East German regime as particularly repellent. Go on, take one more step from seeing Stalin as he was to seeing the East German communists as they were.

Paul Flynn

This morning I will speak in a debate about Russia's invasion of Georgia. Russia has killed one of their opponents in the UK with a radioactive substance, have murdered critical journalists in Russia and closed down Estonia with a cyber attack. Amongst other things Stalin murdered 4 million people. You compare the present Government with this? Hysterical exaggeration, I believe.

Kay Tie

The man in the gym was watching the news showing a Palestinian farmer in the aftermath of the bombing. He swore at the TV, saying "F***ing Israelis, f***ing Jews."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6837725.ece

Are you going to duck responsibility for another example of the fearful climate your government has caused? Who hasn't railed at the TV? Your dear beloved Mr. Blair said "Fucking Welsh!" Does he hate your constituents? I shout at the TV too, when I saw what Ofsted did this week and when I saw what the Met did to peaceful citizens protesting at the G20 summit. I have to be careful the windows are closed now lest an informant calls the anti-terrorist hotline.

You will poo-pooh this all. I will remind you of that when Cameron's boot boys are on the prowl using laws you voted for.

Paul Flynn

This is part of your fantasy world. Kay TieWhat did te man in the gym say?
What theological views?

Kay Tie

You're right John. It's shameful. The fall into Soviet/style totalitarianism isn't so far now. People are now being arrested for being overheard saying things that contradict the prevailing doctrine. For shouting at the telly in a gym, for holding certain theological views.

John

In many ways I agree with Kay Tie about the abuse of laws by those in authority. To me it seems inevitable.We seem to have moved towards authoritarian law making for even the smallest things in our lives. Someone told me how many laws Labour has passed since it came into power and how the prison population has almost doubled.
This is obscene we need less laws and more personal responsibility.
I recently went to a festival of around 10,000 people the majority with familes. Almost everyone in that festival broke the law the majority were using some sort of illegal drug. We are told that such use will lead to anarchy and violence well the opposite is the case. 10,000 people getting on with each other no violence or law breaking. The Police are not allowed on the site because the organisers say they are catalysts for violence and spoil the atmosphere.
This can clearly been seen where the Police are allowed into festivals like Reading and Leeds where copious amounts of the state sanctioned drug alcohol and Police intimidation almost inevitably leads to violence.
Less laws less state inteferance in our lives should be the aim.
I find Pauls belief that such laws will not be abused as a little nieve. We have seen a great reduction in personal freedom over the last 10 years that took many decades to achieve and that his happened under a Labour government is shameful.

Kay Tie

"Are you really that blind Kay Tie?"

If by "blind" you mean that I let the facts obscure ideology, then yes, I must be blind.

"This year alone I have heard more people, on a one to one basis, mention that with the utility bills rising, rent, council tax, food. It is becoming increasingly hard to pay for all this and actually spend decent time with the family and bringing up children."

What a fantastic scientific study. Some people complained about how life has got harder, ergo the utility companies are at fault.

Perhaps the rising prices might have a teensy weensy tendency to be linked to the price of oil and gas and the £/$ exchange rate. Haven't you noticed that the £ has been falling and this has been feeding through as inflation. If you don't know what currency collapse feels like, ask an Icelander. Or wait just a bit longer.

"Im 30yrs of age, self employed and only just scrapping by due to the ammounts i have to pay out in costs to companies for utilities as well as being royally fingered by the banks."

The utilities are generally speaking regulated companies and only allowed to raise prices in line with government regulations. The banks are, of course, largely state-owned. If there's any exploitation of consumers going on, it's with Government connivance.

"Indeed the rich have gotten much richer, off of the backs of the less fortunate. "

The less fortunate have got poorer, have they? Well, that's true in the last year possibly, but then the rich have got considerably poorer too (or don't you read the financial news?).

"Would it not be better if the Banks, Utilities and such were all under government remit?"

They are.

"They should be treated as essencial needs for those living in this country and as such should be paid like civil servants, not making bumper profits"

Yes, let's run the telephone service like the Post Office and NHS dentistry. What a splendid idea. Oh no, hang on, we used to have telephones run exactly like that. You are too young to remember, but I do: it was bloody awful.

CLong

Are you really that blind Kay Tie?

This year alone I have heard more people, on a one to one basis, mention that with the utility bills rising, rent, council tax, food. It is becoming increasingly hard to pay for all this and actually spend decent time with the family and bringing up children.

We wonder why there are a greater proportion of young alcoholics and drug users, well appart from the availability of both legal and illegal drugs to them, we also have a lack of time spent by the parents to properly educate them.
Please don't come back with, parents these days do not know how to bring up children, as this isn't true. Im 30yrs of age, self employed and only just scrapping by due to the ammounts i have to pay out in costs to companies for utilities as well as being royally fingered by the banks.
The lack of time we as parents get to spend with our children directly effects what happens in the future, add this to yellow journalism and we have what we do today.

Indeed the rich have gotten much richer, off of the backs of the less fortunate. The average joe who works fulltime in this area takes home £250 per week. When you take away rent, council tax, gas, electric, insurance, food. Its not hard to see why they struggle. Especially if they have kids.
Indeed the tax credits help a great deal...but if companies rained in their profit margins and stopped taking the P out of everyone, we would be a lot happier and be able to spend more time with our children instead of spending it in work doing over time.

Plus, flame me if im wrong here, but...

Would it not be better if the Banks, Utilities and such were all under government remit? They should be treated as essencial needs for those living in this country and as such should be paid like civil servants, not making bumper profits and going on holidays on the money they were given to supposedly kickstart loans to increase the rate of recovery for the UK in this so called recession.

Kay Tie

"As far as im concerned, Education should be free, tax those who make monster profits off of our backs ... Utility companies, Petro-Chemical industries and such, they, making millions from the poor, continue to get rich whilst the poor get poorer."

Firstly, they do pay tax. Monster amounts of tax corresponding to the monster profits. In general, a huge fraction of the total tax paid in this country comes from the richest corporations and people (did you know that a quarter of all the income tax raised is paid by 1% of the people?).

Secondly, it's a trite phrase that "the poor get poorer". It trips off the tongue, but it's not actually true. Living standards for everyone have risen in the last ten years. The rich got richer, and the poor got richer. What socialists complain about is the richer got richer faster than the poor got richer and that the gap widened. As I said earlier, why is this a problem?

Kay Tie

"Equally bizarre yesterday was an attack yesterday on the LibDems because of the conduct of Lembit's uncle 70 years ago."

I read a lot of political blogs, and sometimes even the BBC news. I never came across this story.

Kay Tie

"This is one on the inevitable UNINTENDED consequences of legislation interpreted by people without commons sense."

Oh, that's all right then. Quick question: couldn't you FORESEE these consequences? By 2006, wasn't it obvious how the quangocracy was developing, that common sense was in very short supply, that there are millions of people out there who LIKE being horrible to other people? (never heard of Peaked-cap Syndrome? The term "Jobsworth"?)

This story, coming on the heels of countless others, illustrated perfectly why statism inevitably leads to wickedness. If you couldn't foresee all this and genuinely thought that the laws would be enforced by rational people who shared your motives and goals then you're not fit to vote on legislation.

Chris Long

What Paul mentions with regards to the media's beatdown on mps, bringing up past family ties and blaming the government for everything that happens, is just a small example of just how bad the media are.
This is the sort of information that confuses people day in, day out.
The media should either keep their noses out, or represent it correctly. After all, the future is apparently in our hands and if that is to be believed, we need the right information to make the correct vote for a better future.

I wish the media would just stop making up headlines for ratings, it doesn't help anyone.

I know you cannot rain in the media, but for those who dont know where or how to source the right information, these reports can mean the difference between people voting or not voting.

As far as im concerned, Education should be free, tax those who make monster profits off of our backs ... Utility companies, Petro-Chemical industries and such, they, making millions from the poor, continue to get rich whilst the poor get poorer.

There are many different options of how to make money that is taxable, unfortunately big business and media scaremongering often put the frighteners on the politicians and yet again, we are denied the opportunity to help to get us out of this rutt.

Kay Tie

Why this obsession with inequality? You would rather we were all poorer but more equal? What does it matter that someone else won the lottery or that Roman Abramovich moved to the UK? Isn't it more important what happens to ordinary people? Here is where Labour has failed: the resources are applied to education (for example) at a level of £6000 per pupil per year, enough to educate every kid privately. But the schools receive less than half that money: it's been snaffled by Ed Balls to give to Ofsted to mentally torture parents sharing childcare duties and other similarly awful projects.

The last ten years show you what an attempt to socially engineer people does. When the fake-charity nef did their global happiness index (happiness somehow being largely based on equality) the highest rated countries in the world were all hellholes like North Korea.

Just as the financial world repeats tragic mistakes when the nightmare fades from memory, we are now relearning bitterly just what Labour does to ordinary people. Let us hope that this time the lesson is so severe that Labour ceases to exist.

Paul Flynn

Tony, de-regulation was the fashion of the age promoted by Thatcher and every Government since. labour was the least enthusiastic. LibDem have an honourable recent record.
How about a little credit for the way Labour handled the crisis. The world recognises Brown's leadership. When will this country?

Paul Flynn

This is one on the inevitable UNINTENDED consequences of legislation interpreted by people without commons sense. The Children's Minister has ordered a review of the case of two police officers told they had broken the law by caring for each other's children. To base an attack on Government on this is to follow the tabloid agenda.
Equally bizarre yesterday was an attack yesterday on the LibDems because of the conduct of Lembit's uncle 70 years ago. This was alos a defence of Cameron!

Tony

I noted with interest that at the conference people are referring to Labour as 'underdogs'

As far as I can see there is only two reasons for that

a) public spending is on huge deficit and cuts are inevitable , as well as tax rises to correct that

b) Labour presided over the largest and fastest growth in inequality in the UK in the last 12 years

If, and I think its a huge if, Labour wants to survive the election then rather than harking back to back events (lets face it , if the banks had been regulated properly in the first place Brown would not have had to step in - treating the sympton not the cause..) I would like to understand what Labour has in mind to solve both problems

..and I think that all this talk about a fightback is just a joke - just fix the problems instead of just talking about it !

Kay Tie

Wacqui Jacqui was merely one of many awful Home Secretaries, both Tory and Labour. The Home Office is a deeply authoritarian and unpleasant department. At least it has been broken in two (even if the Ministry of Justice has horribly communist-era connotations). It needs to be broken up even further so there is less opportunity to join up the nasty thinking.

The latest piece of authoritarian legislaton to rebound is the Childcare Act 2006:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8277378.stm

Two policewomen are threatened with prosecution for sharing child-minding while they work shifts. And worse, Ofted have told these women that they will now be under surveillance to check up on them in the future (surveillance permitted under RIPA, that you voted for in 2000).

Ooops. I forgot, the Terrorism Act 2000 has rebounded too this week (at least you voted against that). The dreadful Scedule 7 removed any PACE protections within ports and airports. This lets police officers detain people for up to nine hours without suspicion or even arrest, to demand all questions be answered (with no right to silence) and can demand identity documents. And what do we find? (Apart from the usual abuse of protestors that have become a hallmark of New Labour). We find that the Scottish Executive are using these blanket powers to introduce passport checks for passengers arriving in Scotland on domestic flights. It's almost as pathetic as it is authoritarian.

What particular part of the Terrorism Act made you - and no Tories or liberty-loving Liberal Democrats - vote against it?

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