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April 07, 2009

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HuwOS

Greg you say
"the 'top dogs' in the public sector, as Kay Tie calls them are anything but capitalist - they're an overpaid part of a vast unproductive public sector which is parasitising the private sector."

Surely they are clear example of capitalist thinking.
For them to be saying
'we run the equivalent of a FTSE 100 company so should have equivalent compensation'
could surely only be the result of living in a capitalist society and having taken on all the values of the same.
But even if it were as you suggest
"a sick parody of capitalism"
One thing it is not, is socialist
nor as KayTie, who seems to be operating
under the delusion that the New Labour
government is some rabidly left wing organisation, said
"the inevitable consequence of socialism, I'm afraid"
We are not in a socialist country, we do not have a socialist government,
the problems we have now are very much the result of capitalist free market ideologies that have held sway in this country, with it's governments and much of the western world since the early 80's.
The chickens have come home to roost,
but despite this some people are so wedded
to their dream of capitalism that they cannot accept that it's failures belong to it alone (although in some cases accept that poor implementation and oversight have a bearing on it) and try to pass the buck onto some completely illusionary "socialism"
the likes of which has not existed in this country for quite a lengthy period of time.

KayTie, neither Brown nor Blair betrayed their principles in government, they betrayed them if indeed they ever had them to get into government.
New Labour abandoned many of the positions of old and positioned themselves to the
left of Thatcher but right of centre; ground they have held since.
The only pleasure for lefties being the discomfort it cause the Tory party, whose ground it was. But that was a very small pleasure and not worth the price.

Kaytie is nearly right about the abolition of the 10p rate but it was not a gross attack, attacks are deliberate, this was not even intentional, those who would be adversely affected were so unimportant and irrelevent to him that they did not even cross the then chancellors mind.

Perhaps KayTie you could explain what you mean by a citizen's basic income, as I cannot conceive of how it could be anything other than a statist solution, not one I'd object to mind, but certaintly it requires fairly major state intervention, which is surely the definition of statist.

Kay Tie

Yes, that's what happens: people betray their principles in government, or else they didn't have any to start with. Another reason to limit government to the minimum.

By the way, I think you'll find I agree with more than half your complaints against G. Brown. The abolition of the 10p rate was a gross attack on the poorest. But I must say again: there are plenty on the "right" who would have the zero rate band raised to £10,000 per year. And (like me) call for a Citizen's Basic Income to pull people out of the benefits trap. You should look at some of these ideas: they could make a real difference to the poorest, far more than the statist solutions from the Labour Party.

patrick

Brown the great 'socialist' that voted for war, privatisation,student top up fees and the 10p fiasco.

Kay Tie

The Labour Party socialists (prop. G. Brown) are bad enough to be getting on with. Criticising them for not being socialist enough is, well, depressing.

I know that those on the Left automatically oppose anything "libertarian" but they ought to have an open mind - those on the Right (assuming one can apply such a label to libertarians) very often have the same goals: helping unfortunates, breaking down class barriers, etc. The methods by which they seek to do it are opposite to those of the Left, but nonetheless the motives should not be disparaged. I come from a poor working class background and am passionate about affording others the opportunities I had: opportunities that are closed off by statist solutions. Those on the Left should be shamed by the results of statsism from the Labour Party now and from countless socialist regimes of the past.

patrick

PF
This private vs public is a minefield for debate.As this subject makes my blood boil could you enlighten me on who or what kind of cretinous individual or whatever decides on the pay structure for such as the 195 and Council leaders etc?
Something major is wrong when the nurse, fireman, policeman, teacher and many other public sector workers are struggling whilst those above them command huge salaries.
It doesn't need an Einstein to work out that whilst the pot is empty, continued pay increases for non productives is total insanity.

Kay Tie, perhaps you could educate the blog and let us know who the socialists that run Britain are?


Kay Tie

"I'd say the 'top dogs' in the public sector, as Kay Tie calls them"

Err, no, I don't call them "top dogs". The phrase might have the word "dog" in it at some point (along with the word "mangy"), but never "top dogs".

greg

Hello Huw

I'd say the 'top dogs' in the public sector, as Kay Tie calls them are anything but capitalist - they're an overpaid part of a vast unproductive public sector which is parasitising the private sector - Patrick being a case in point.

They use phrases such as 'we run the equivalent of a FTSE 100 company so should have equivalent compensation', but have none of the risks - it's a sick parody of capitalism used to justify their greed. Last time I looked, council tax payers were literally a captive audience - it's not like you can change service providers if you're unhappy.

I remember the public sector used to trade off relatively lower wages than private companies with better job security and pensions - where exactly did the 100k CEO come from?


HuwOS

Oh such nonsense Kay Tie.
That the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is the normal and natural consequence with capitalism.
There is a reason that 1% of the global population have 40% of the world's wealth
while 50% of the people of the world try to get by on 1% of the wealth, and it is not due to some global socialist experiment, unless I missed a meeting.
Britain is not a socialist economy and it does not have a socialist government, so how you think anything in Britain would highlight flaws in socialism would be beyond most rational people.
This is 2009, this is Britain after 30 years of surging overriding capitalist free market policies, the only system whose flaws are being highlighted now with their natural consequences, is capitalism.
Worse yet for the capitalist flag bearers, the current financial crisis is not just affecting the usual victims, the working classes and the poor but its spooking the middle classes as well.
Time for another war perhaps, or maybe something else can be found to distract the majority, some issue of relative unimportance that can be seized on and take up weeks and months of their attention.
But who knows if such an issue can be found.


Kay Tie

"Every year the council tax rises far above inflation ,the top dogs get a pay rise and local services are destroyed.
But hey , they only affect poor people!"

This is the inevitable consequence of socialism, I'm afraid. It's always the poorest in society who suffer the most from the behaviour of the apparatchiks.

Kay Tie

"I have not seen anything from Daniel Harman before but I recognise the similarities. Having worked for an MEP 25 year ago, I know that most of them are on the most shameless gravy train in Europe"

I take it you're not one of the two million people who watched Daniel Hannan skewer Gordon Brown during his visit to the European Parliament then?

In any case, you and Daniel Hannan agree 100% about gravy train:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2007/02/20/the_superlative__eu_expense_account

patrick

PF
"Having worked for an MEP 25 year ago, I know that most of them are on the most shameless gravy train in Europe"

The local news talks of the closing of toilets, bus services ceasing and libraries closing due to lack of funds .
Next we hear that the top civil parasites including members of the potless councils are getting another pay rise.
As a mere self-employed person earning a pittance i'm sick of contributing to council leaders holidays, four tracks and golf club membership.
Every year the council tax rises far above inflation ,the top dogs get a pay rise and local services are destroyed.
But hey , they only affect poor people!

Paul Flynn

I have not seen anything from Daniel Harman before but I recognise the similarities. Having worked for an MEP 25 year ago, I know that most of them are on the most shameless gravy train in Europe

Richard

Damn right PF. Let's hope we can stop this prohibitionist nonsense.

Kay Tie

Interesting piece by Daniel Hannan:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/04/07/mps_sleaze_its_time_for_a_contract_with_britain

Rather chimes with what you've written on this topic before. Let's hope that the quiet sensible people can sort this out before it goes much further.

Paul Flynn

Absolutely right KayTie. They are funded by a Japanese company. It's a fine example of a happy cooperation between the two companies.

The film was done with the new camera. This is a crude one. I will add an edited version tomorrow.

Kay Tie

Nice video: did you use that new Flip camera you were talking about?

It's also worth pointing out that Surface Technology Systems is a subsidiary of a Japanese company. The benefits of an open economy that welcomes foreign investors are clear. That's one group of your constituents who will have little time for the slogan "British workers for British jobs."

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