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November 09, 2007


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body detox

reluctant to swallow stories of censorship or conspiracy. But there is a freakish reluctance for the media to publish the whole truth of recent mass shootings. The headlines in the Finnish Press about a shooting rampage by an 18-year old High School student, Pekka-Eric Auvinen reported

Who Cares?  Certainly Not the Government!

The government will do NOTHING.

Now we have the USA style "TeenScreen" landing on the doorstep of the United Kingdom. Has ANY politician tried to stop it? The UK's copycat version of "TeenScreen" is for 5 to 13 year olds, so presumably should be called UK PreTeenScreen.

Drug them while they are young, and the salaries of the government department, MHRA, are ensured, as the drug makers have 'iatrogenically mentally ill' patients / paying customers for life - for those children who survive.

It will not be long before the Queen will have no need to visit the USA to "silently await a 21 gun fire salute....from the local High School" (taken from a satirical comment from 'Have I Got News For You').

The Government of the UK have worked hard to ensure (or done nothing to stop) that OUR children will follow the footsteps of the pharmaceutical industries' drugged up USA children and be drug enabled enough to indulge in homicidality and homicidal and suicidal activity in schools for themselves on behalf of the United Kingdom's GOVERNMENT.

WHEN are the government going to bring THEIR DEPARTMENT, the MHRA, and the "experts" the MHRA employ (who also prefer high salaries and perks to ethics) back under control to safeguard the people?

How many politicians are working to STOP THIS? Do the people pay the politicians to poison the paediatric population? I don't think so.

BTW, could your government department, the MHRA, please also be told to ask Wyeth Pharmaceuticals to stop moving the side effect called
of Efexor / Venlafaxine from page to page on their amazingly long and boring labelling information pdf and to put it clearly alongside "SUICIDAL IDEATION" IN CLEAR VIEW ON ALL LABELS for clinicians and patients?

It was bad enough that such an important warning to the medical profession was hidden WAY down on page 36, then, when that information could easily be found on the internet, it was moved to page 40 (do GPs and psychiatrists have time to read down that far anyway when they're in a hurry to prescribe drugs they are told by the MHRA and the Drug Makers are beneficial?) and its now bordering on the ridiculous (or the corrupt) that once again it has been moved, this time to page 43 here:

Perhaps too, the MHRA could re required to, given Pfizer's OWN evidence (thus your gov department, the MHRA, cannot claim not to know) here: http://www.ssri-uksupport.com/PfizerZoloft1983.pdf
(see page 2 of 2)
DEMAND THAT PFIZER ADD "HOMICIDAL IDEATION" and "SUICIDAL IDEATION" to their side effects re drug Sertraline / Lustral / Zoloft IN CLEAR VIEW ON ALL INFORMATION AND LABELS to warn both clinicians and patients?

Given also the masses of information provided over several years by Professor Healy to the MHRA, seen here:
could we, the electorate, please require the government to demand that the government department, the MHRA, do their job and ensure that GSK add the same to THEIR list of side effects for Paroxetine / Seroxat / Paxil, "HOMICIDAL IDEATION" and "SUICIDAL IDEATION" IN CLEAR VIEW ON ALL INFORMATION AND LABELS to warn both clinicians and patients?


require Eli Lilly to add "HOMICIDAL IDEATION" and "SUICIDAL IDEATION" to THEIR list of side effects of their drug Fluoxetine / PROZAC IN CLEAR VIEW ON ALL INFORMATION AND LABELS to warn both clinicians and patients?

To allow the medical professional proper and easy information, and where such clinicians have selective blindness or a lack of research abilities, that their patients might, despite drug induced "cognitive" damage side effects and the like, hopefully notice or understand the warnings - in order to save the extra life here and there?

Not only would that help save the lives of the 'Patients', but also, it would appear, save the lives of unaware, uninformed PSYCHIATRISTS - because they too commit homicide on these drugs - even in the United Kingdom as in the latest one known of:

We, the electorate, should not be have to be unpaid watchdogs over the well paid government watchdogs.

PLEASE BRING THE MHRA (the UNITED KINDGOM's VERSION OF THE FDA but, though a UK government department it is the one allowed to have its salaries paid by the drug maker's it is supposed to be watching)

THE MHRA IS OUT OF CONTROL and its the elected politicians job (paid for BY the public) to ensure its departments are run properly FOR the public. In this case to defend the SAFETY of the public. The UK has started on the path that the USA have taken for some time regarding 'legal' drugs. The MHRA and its "experts" have shown that they, just like the FDA, are a disgrace to the world.

But ...Who Cares?


I didn't expect an answer, but came back on the slimmest of hopes there would be one, I shouldn't have bothered. Will check again in a few years in case someone has DONE something.

“We keep watch over medicines and devices, and we take any necessary action to protect the public promptly if there is a problem.” MHRA. http://www.mhra.GOV.uk/home/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=20

That would be the biggest LAUGH of the 21st century - if it wasn't for the fact that their total LACK OF ACTION is killing people.


I guess that we're not entitled to expect the MHRA to do the job they're supposed to so, and we all must expect to be the watchdogs for many years until they do.

Why it should be "unrealistic" for any of us to expect actual urgent ACTION from a government department (mhra.GOV.uk) to do what its meant to do I have no idea, but clearly thats how it is.

So lets keep trying to warn the people about the drugs the MHRA don't warn about, while the posh boys that have one well good cushy gov job in the MHRA sit around doing nothing, doing jack ****, and lets try NOT to think "hang on a minute, they're paid to WORK for their living, its their JOG to be watchdogs on the industry, wny the heck are we supposed to do their job for nothing", because...

...it just isn't considered cool to expect government officials to actually work for their pay in protecting the public, after all they're busy. What with, who knows, but for sure it isn't the work they're paid to do.

Who cares how many people are dying while the pompous little overpaid privileged few sit around in a well paid job hob-nobbing with the pharmaceutical companies!

We do.

The problem is, they don't.


But Karol, you may be a researcher looking in a pond, but you are not the goldfish. In truth, neither researcher has any conception as to how the goldfish feel.

We have had the Finnish shooting. Now we have Ohama. A teenager who, according to his friend Shawm Saumders, had for the last couple of months been on "a bunch of anti-depressants".


"...One of them, Shawn Saunders, says he never saw something like this coming... although he knew hawkins was troubled. "I was shocked. It didn't seem like something he would do. He was kind of a funny, goofy kid, you know. He's been depressed for the last couple of months and on a bunch of anti-depressants and what not. He got fired recently. Everything kind of sucked for him I guess."

karol karolak

Pg, two Chinese philosophers on a stroll stopped at the edge of the pond. They looked down and saw couple of goldfish swimming in it. One philosopher said; look at this goldfish frolicking in the pond it must be very happy. The other said; how do, who are not a goldfish, know whether that goldfish is happy or not??? First philosopher responded; how do you, who are not me, know whether I know it or not???


And by the way, your patronising attitude is SO INSULTING. I can't talk for people like Professor Healy or Dr Lucire, but I can talk for ME and for others like me who have experience side effects. You said (amongst many other things):

"pg, it seems to me that everything I wrote just blew over your head"

Sorry Karol, but it isn't that things blew over my head (or over Dr Lucire's) its that YOU HAVE NO IDEA and ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE of ANYTHING you are talking about, and its everything that anyone has said so far BLEWS SO HIGH ABOVE YOURS, you are not capable of understanding.

Your attitude is SO INSULTING. People who have, by the skin of their teeth, survived and have been left in a state of 'altered consciousness' have lost things - everything they used to be, everything they used to feel, and everyone they used to relate to - in a way that is so horrible and that you have NO WAY of ever understanding.


So: side effects of Zyprexa are acceptable by you, Zyprexa is different, dangerous (and dangerous it is), but when side effects in people like Pekka-Eric emerge on EQUALLY dangerous drugs then it must be really due to what YOUR not-so-humble opinion considers to be Narcissistic Personality Disorder. How useful you must find 'selective' thinking.

I have no idea whether you have misjudged Martin Teicher, but it is fairly clear to us who have EXPERIENCED something you have not, the side effects of drugs, that you misjudge people you have never met, who have experienced what you have never experienced. That is most definitely a "HURDLE" you have to get over. Why not TRY the drugs, experience akathisia and iatrogenic psychosis and mania and find out personally, then give an opinion -if indeed you'll be capable of doing so afterwards. Look forward to hearing from you sometime in the months or years after that experience.


So please refrain from lecturing to a whole different caboodle of personalities that have suffered the side effects, that we must be narcissistic personalities. We may be NOW from time to time, but we weren't before the drug or the withdrawal experience. Thank you.

Back to the Finnish shooting and a child given antidepressants that a section of the adult population find it difficult to survive.


But do feel free to go on and on and on about it all.



karol karolak

Hi pg, It seems that I was not quite up to date on plasticity of role and functions of left and right brain hemispheres, and it seems that I have also misjudged Dr. Martin H Teicher.

I hope that you will find this article of some interest.

Karol Karolak P. Eng.


===Determination of hemispheric emotional valence in individual subjects: A new approach with research and therapeutic implications===

Fredric Schiffer , Martin H Teicher , Carl Anderson , Akemi Tomoda1, Ann Polcari , Carryl P Navalta and Susan L Andersen

karol karolak

pg, here is my letter to Dr. Links;

Karol Karolak P. Eng.
1003 – 3125 Queen Frederica Drive
Mississauga, Ont. L4Y 3A6
Phone (905) 804 9564,
Email: karol_karolak@rogers.com
October 9, 2007.

Dr. Paul S. Links,
Professor of Psychiatry, Suicide Studies
St. Michael's Hospital
30 Bond Street, Ste. 2011S
Toronto, ON
M5B 1W8

Dear Dr. Links,

With great interest I have read slides that you have used in your presentation during Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention Conference held on October 26, 2006 in Toronto, Ontario.

I am sending you with these letter copies of various documents that I have collected over last couple of years regarding issues of alarming rate of suicides among former psychiatric patients in North America.

I have never been a psychiatric patient and I am not familiar with realities faced by all the people that live thru such experience so all the documents that I have collected concentrate of only one aspect of that issue, namely use of psychotropic drugs to intentionally induce suicide. From all the documents that I have collected it seems that great many psychiatric patients these days might be the victims of what I call Zyprexa Experiment.

In Dr. David Healy’s opinion, expressed in his article “The Latest Mania: Selling Bipolar Disorder” posted on line at;

North America is a hotbed of bogus “bipolar” epidemic created mainly by Eli Lilly and Co. in order to expand their revenues from manufacturing and sale of Zyprexa (Olanzapine) and maintain their revenue base from manufacturing and sale of SSRI class of antidepressants.

In that article Dr. David Healy wrote, quote,
“The selling of bipolar disorder stresses that the disorder takes a fearsome toll of suicides. And indeed the controversy surrounding the provocation of suicide by antidepressants has been recast by some as a consequence of mistaken diagnosis. If the treating physician had only realized the patient was bipolar, they would not have mistakenly prescribed an antidepressant. Because of the suicide risk traditionally linked to patients with bipolar disorders who needed hospitalisation, most psychiatrists would find it difficult to leave any person with a case of bipolar disorder unmedicated. Yet, the best available evidence shows that unmedicated patients with bipolar disorder do not have a higher risk of suicide.

Storosum and colleagues analyzed all placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trials of mood stabilizers for the prevention of manic/depressive episode that were part of a registration dossier submitted to the regulatory authority of the Netherlands, the Medicines Evaluation Board, between 1997 and 2003 [28]. They found four such prophylaxis trials. They compared suicide risk in patients on placebo compared with patients on active medication. Two suicides (493/100,000 person- years of exposure) and eight suicide attempts (1,969/100,000 person-years of exposure) occurred in the group given an active drug (943 patients), but no suicides and two suicide attempts (1,467/100,000 person-years of exposure) occurred in the placebo group (418 patients). Based on these absolute numbers from these four trials, I have calculated (see Figure S1 showing calculation, and see Figure 2) that active agents are most likely to be associated with a 2.22 times greater risk of suicidal acts than placebo (95% CI 0.5, 10.00).

Figure 2. Author's Graph of p-Value Function Based on Data in [30]

You might be well aware that backlash against use of SSRI due to linkage between increased use of SSRI antidepressants and increased number of suicides caused very significant drop in overall rate of prescriptions for SSRI class of antidepressants in last couple of years. This drop in SSRI prescriptions has not been reflected in overall drop in rate of suicides in North America as it would naturally be expected and overall suicide rate keeps on rising in US and Canada.

During Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention Conference held on October 26, 2006 in Toronto, Ontario you have presented your findings regarding suicide statistics following discharge from psychiatric hospitalisation. Figures that you presented are staggering to say the least; Qin and Nordentoft study conducted in 2005 on 3880 cases shows that 34% (1319/3880) of former psychiatric patients committed suicide within first month after release from psychiatric hospital this very alarming rate goes up to 77% (2487/3880) suicides within first six months after release from psychiatric hospital.

Finding you have presented, especially Lawrence et al. 2001 showing suicide rate ratio in first 7 days after release from psychiatric hospital, are very consistent with my theory of pump and dump method of inducing suicide using Olanzapine where prolonged administration of large doses of Olanzapine causes disruption in brain’s ability to naturally produce neurotransmitter serotonin (Olanzapine blocks serotonin receptors) and sudden withdrawal of use of Olanzapine upon discharge from psychiatric hospital causes unblocking of serotonin receptors with simultaneous inability of brain tissues to produce serotonin in sufficient quantity to allow proper brain functioning.

This rapid onset of severe serotonin deficiency causes severe depression (well scientifically established causation) and subsequent suicide (also well scientifically established causation).

This alarming rate of suicides of psychiatric patients after discharge from psychiatric hospitals that you have mentioned in your CASP presentation, that in my humble opinion is due to pump and dump use of Olanzapine, might be significant enough to erase any drop of suicide rates due to reduced prescription rates of SSRI class of antidepressants.

Quite, recently I have read number of articles trying to dismiss Dr. David Healy’s finding on connection between use of SSRI’s and increased suicide risks, using arguments that I have mentioned above; anticipated drop in suicide rates due to reduced use of SSRI class of antidepressants did not materialise.

In the copies of documents that I am sending you, you will find some documents pertaining to wrongful incarceration and forced drugging of well known Canadian mezzo soprano Ms. Linda Maguire (Brokenshire) at CAMH in winter of 2002/2003.

Ms. Linda Maguire (Brokenshire) is the only person that I have come across that lived thru Zyprexa pump and dump experiment. I am aware of two other “very convenient” suicides in Toronto area one involving victim of a botched anaesthesia during leg surgery resulting in brain damage who hanged herself (unusual for a woman) six months following her surgery. Description of the other case you will find in attached documents.

Dear Dr. Links, as you will see from attached documents I have attempted to contact various authorities and alert them to what seems to be greatest case of mass murder in Canadian and US history.

Your unique position as professor of psychiatry at Department of Psychiatry of University of Toronto and the Arthur Sommer Rotenberg Chair in Suicide Studies, the only endowed chair in suicide studies in North America, give you enough clout to stop this ongoing carnage.

Please fell free to distribute materials I am sending you to any and all people who might be able to intervene, you have my and Ms. Linda Maguire’s (Brokenshire) permission to do so.


Karol Karolak P. Eng.

Sent by regular mail.


karol karolak

pg, it seems to me that everything I wrote just blew over your head. Dr. David Healy is no doubt a heroic figure and I deeply admire all his efforts of trying to alert MHRA of dangers of antidepressants and atypical antipsychotic drugs. I do not question Dr. Healy’s intentions as it is clear that his actions are aimed at saving lives, I do not question his knowledge of adverse effects of these drugs either. All that I am saying is that what Dr. Healy does is simply not enough to sway corrupted minds of North American psychiatrists.

Case in point; Department of Psychiatry at University of Toronto has one and only fully endowed Chair in "Suicide Studies" in North America.


When you browse that webpage you might notice that virtually all educational events organised by that Suicide Study Unit are sponsored by Eli Lilly and Co.

This chair in suicide studies is currently held by Dr. Paul S. Links.


Here is what Dr. Paul Links has to say to Dr. David Healy.


==In defence of Prozac==

Science, not the righteousness of contrary views, must determine the merits of the drug, a doctor says

by Paul Links
June 25, 2001 -- Recently, a patient of mine refused to consider antidepressant treatment for his depression. He had read newspaper reports that Prozac caused people to commit suicide. Being on faculty in the department of psychiatry at the University of Toronto, I lead a small group teaching session on this issue. I was struck again by the lack of informed debate on the relationship between Prozac and suicide. Burdened by these two events, I tread with trepidation into the local debate regarding Dr. David Healy’s assertions that Prozac causes suicidality.
Healy has very publicly made the claim, for example last year in the Boston Globe, that “probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated.” In the fall of 2000, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health revoked an offer of employment to Healy as the clinical director of the Centre’s mood and anxiety disorders program. Allegedly, the decision followed a lecture by Healy where he exposed his thesis about Prozac causing suicidality. Although Healy’s arguments must be aired, my purpose in writing is to clarify the relationship between Prozac and the risk of suicide.
I must declare that my interest in joining this debate also relates to the mandate of the Arthur Sommer Rotenberg Chair in Suicide Studies, an endowed academic chair which I hold at the University of Toronto. This chair was established in 1997 in honour of Dr. Arthur Sommer Rotenberg, an accomplished family physician who took his life in 1992. U of T was the first university in North America to establish an academic chair dedicated to the study of suicide. Over the last four years we have established a research group at St. Michael’s Hospital with expertise in suicide research, drawing on the strengths of many professionals. The goals of the chair are to understand the causes leading to suicide and suicidal behaviours, to develop effective treatment and prevention to lessen the risk of suicide in high risk groups and individuals and to provide education and advocacy to health professionals, government policy-makers and the general public.
Healy’s thesis that Prozac causes suicide garnered a great deal of media attention, attention that threatens to outweigh the actual scientific evidence for this causal relationship. Indeed, that evidence points in the opposite direction. First, depression is an established risk factor for the development of suicidal thoughts and behaviours. Perhaps, 80 per cent of depressed patients report suicidal thoughts and as many as 80 per cent of suicide victims were suffering depression at the time of their death.
Second, Prozac and other selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants are proven effective treatments for depression. Some experts have concluded that SSRI antidepressants are superior to other antidepressants in treating suicidal thoughts and suicidal behaviour. A growing body of biological research has implicated low serotonin in the brain as an important determinant of suicidal and impulsive behaviour. Antidepressants such as the SSRIs that function primarily by increasing serotin levels in the brain might reverse this risk factor for suicidal behaviour. Our group has received funding from two pharmaceutical companies, Smith Kline Beecham Pharma and Eli Lilly and Company, to carry out randomized control clinical trials testing the hypothesis that SSRIs have specific properties that lessen the risk of suicide in depressed and other groups of patients.
Third, the association between SSRI treatment and the emergence of suicidal behaviour is mostly based on single case reports. Healy, himself, has recently reported on two cases of suicidal ideation experienced by healthy volunteers exposed to the SSRI, sertraline. However, many more systematic and scientifically rigorous studies of this hypothesis have failed to support the causal association between Prozac and other SSRIs and suicidal behaviour. Studies from Sweden and Denmark have documented, based on population data, that depressed patients treated with antidepressants have a lower risk of suicide than untreated patients and the decline in the Swedish suicide rates parallel a steady increase in the use of antidepressants.
Finally, when researchers reconstruct the circumstances leading up to an individual’s suicide, the majority of depressed individuals have seen a physician within 90 days of their death but the minority of them were receiving adequate treatment for their depression. In summary, the supported causal relationship is between depression leading to suicide and suicidal behaviour. Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants prevent suicides by alleviating depression. It is the risk of under-treatment of depression that leads to suicide.
Certainly Healy is right on at least one point: as with any medical intervention there can be untoward adverse events and these must be acknowledged. Prozac has documented side effects including agitation and restlessness. However, the righteousness that accompanies the expression of contrary views must not supercede the scientific merits of these arguments. Individuals suffering from depression must not be dissuaded from accepting proven effective treatments such as Prozac. Encouraging patients to seek appropriate medical treatment of depression prevents suicide.
Professor Paul Links of psychiatry holds the Arthur Sommer Rotenberg Chair in Suicide Studies at U of T.


Good grief Mr Karolak, do you expect busy doctors to have the time and energy to answer in close detail the copious comments of a man with so much more time on his hands?

Did you entertain the idea that Dr Lucire for instance may already be well read on Otto Kernberg and others?

I'm so glad to note that the last thing you wish to do is to discredit Professor Healy, although its also notable that you wish to inform the world via the internet and on a politician's website of "Dr. Healy’s silence" which you add "is more surprising considering the fact that he is well known as a historian of psychiatry" and then, in a now familiar pattern of behaviour, you attempt to to sound benign by adding that it is "hard to blame him".

I'm pleased that your wife (sorry, ex wife) was so happy when you informed her that she was not normal and fulfilled all the criteria of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. What a thoughtful, romantic and appreciative thing for a husband to say to a busy mother with young children. I can't even begin to imagine how she must have felt inside about that.

Talking about children, Pekka-Eric Auvinen was prescribed powerful antidepressants with some established and highly dangerous adverse effects listed, including akathisia, mania, hallucinations, psychosis, sucidal and homicidal ideation.

In the United Kingdom, some people are concerned about those effects, particularly when they can have such devestating results for young children, and want to know why UK media chose to suppress the information that he was taking antidepressants when at least some of the media are aware that Professor Healy has been involved in informing of those risks to our regulatory authority, the MHRA.

I am tired of, but will probably persist in, bringing this issue back to the forefront here no matter how often you try to lead in different directions.

karol karolak

Yolande Lucire, let me try it one more time, I wrote;

Yolande Lucire, you might wish to read Dr.Otto F. Kernberg, "Aggression in Personality Disorders and Perversions"
and "Severe Personality Disorders: Psychotherapeutic Strategies"

Your approach to diagnosing personality disorders sounds troublesome.

If you go by DSM IV -TR trying to diagnose narcissistic personality disorder you will miss great many patients suffering from it. That being the case I would put very litte stock in your claim that if I were a clinician I would have noticed that personality disorder develops in some in mature formerly stable individuals on antidepressants.

Quite to the contrary antidepressants tend to unmask narcissistic personality disorder to untrained eyes.

Posted by: karol karolak | November 14, 2007 at 09:08 PM

In response you wrote quote;

Personality disorders start in early adult life and some start earlier.
When someone becomes ‘personality disordered’ at thirty, forty or fifty after getting an antidepressant, their symptoms and behaviours rarely fulfil the required criteria and the unwary jump to conclusions seeing obsessive suicidality or mild grandiosity, associated with manic shift.
The proof of the pudding is that these so called ‘personality disorders’ can be cured by slowly stopping the offending drug, and I have cured many.

Posted by: Yolande Lucire | November 15, 2007 at 11:18 PM

Did you bother to read Dr. Kernberg's books as I asked you to do??? No, why because in your opinion these people never suffered from personality disorders in a first place. You do not even allow a possibility that you are untrained to diagnosie them properly so you "cured them" by taking them off antidepressants.

I do not want to sound sarcastic here, but here it is;

Patient stopped coughing and therefore he got cured of tuberculosis, and it all sounds good to me.

karol karolak

pg, I am not going after messenger and I am not trying to let big pharma get off the hook by blaming patients instead of the drug and the last thing I am trying to do is discredit Dr. David Healy.

Lets back up for a moment here and look at different ideas people put forward over time. Year is 1976 and Dr. Julian Jaynes publishes his book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"


His ideas are dismissed by psychiatric community.

Starting in 1996 Dr. Martin H. Teicher starts to publish his findings changes of brain structures resulting from child abuse.




Dr. Teicher's explanation follows Dr. Jaynes' theory but Dr. Jaynes is mentioned anywhere in Dr. Teicher's article. One would have to ask why and it seems to me that the reason is quite simple Dr. Julian Jaynes' theories are still not well received by psychiatric community.

Dr. Otto Kernberg follows great tradition of Sigmund Freud and he does not seek validations for Freud’s theories in ever exploding field of psychiatry based on neurobiology of human brain. It is hard to imagine that Dr. Otto Kernberg was not aware of Julian Jaynes' theories that could have been adopted and modified to explain Ego- Super Ego and False Ego theories.

Dr. Martin Teicher on the other hand plays it safe with modern biology based concepts of psychiatry and he does not offer any credit to Dr. Julian Jaynes or Dr. Otto Kernberg. On top of that we have issues of emotional mind and theories of consciousness researched Dr Antonio R. Damasio published in his book “The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness” that are also hanging out there.

David (Healy) in his fight with Goliath (big pharma) stays totally mum on findings of Drs. Julian Jaynes, Otto Kernberg and Martin Teicher just to name the few. Dr. Healy’s silence is more surprising considering the fact that he is well known as a historian of psychiatry.

It is hard to blame Dr. Healy for his silence as his adversaries are watching him very closely and they are Hell bent on using everything he says to discredit him.

Situation in psychiatry right now is such that we do not have an all encompassing theory how human mind work and how it can go off the rails and how to fix it. What we have instead are some disconnected islands of knowledge all pointing in same direction.

There is not much variation or disagreements in medicine regarding human anatomy, so there is very little room left for snake oil sellers to barge in and wreck havoc offering miracle cures that might allow people to grow four arms and gain competitive advantage.

As long as there is no agreement in world’s psychiatric community how healthy human mind works big pharma will keep on using greedy, unscrupulous and gullible psychiatrists and by extension general practitioners to wreck havoc peddling their wares to unsuspecting public.

I hope that I am clear in explaining my position on accomplishments and shortcomings of modern psychiatry.

In my personal view current situation in psychiatry somehow resembles situation that existed in physics before arrival of Albert Einstein.

Yolande Lucire

Personality disorders start in early adult life and some start earlier.
When someone becomes ‘personality disordered’ at thirty, forty or fifty after getting an antidepressant, their symptoms and behaviours rarely fulfil the required criteria and the unwary jump to conclusions seeing obsessive suicidality or mild grandiosity, associated with manic shift.
The proof of the pudding is that these so called ‘personality disorders’ can be cured by slowly stopping the offending drug, and I have cured many.


With all due respect Karol, none of this has anything to do the Pekka-Eric Auvinen or with adverse effects of antidepressants which include 'personality disorder' and 'homicidal and suicidal ideation'.

I am aware you are an engineer by profession. You also appear to be quite prolific on the web in your concern about the issues of Prolife and the abuse of children.

ABUSE takes many forms. One of the worst and most devasting forms (sometimes permanently as in a lifetime reliance on medications, or death by physical ADRs or drug induced suicidality, or a lifetime of incarceration for drug-induced homicidality in children under 13 for instance) is so:

That (under the banner of "science" but full of fraudulent claims and withheld clinial trial data) children are declared by adults - in whom they depend for survival - to be suffering from some particularly questionable mental disorders and then are diagnosed and drugged with 'medication' where trial data has been often falsified, often withheld, often distorted - and has caused aggression and suicidality in MENTALLY HEALTHY trial volunteers, and then finally, are blamed by key opinion leaders in psychiatry (and their followers) for the adverse affects of the drugs.

You mention Professor Healy and Toronto in your postings and appear to have sent emails to him and yet you seem totally unaware of, or disagree with, some of his important findings - which would have contributed to the shannanigans at Toronto.

Professor Healy has SEEN data on suicidality and homicidality and has reported on it to the MHRA. He has studied the data and has noted how homicidality, for instance, has been miscoded / called "nausea".


"...Reports on these trials list patients who have committed suicide, and list those patients as being of a certain age and as having committed suicide at a certain point during the trial, when the patient in question has a very different age and the event in question happened at a completely different point during the trial".

"Miscoding of suicidal act as emotional lability."

" Lilly have resorted to treatment non-response and a range of other headings to code what happened."

"...records on Prozac, Seroxat/Paxil and Lustral/Zoloft, you will find cases of HOMICIDALITY CODED AS NAUSEA for instance."

"Discontinuation of patients from studies for primary adverse effects such as nausea when in fact there has been a suicidal act;"

"But it is also worth adding specifically that this has been a feature of all trials of Zoloft / Lustral, Seroxat / Paxil and Prozac throughout, as far as I can make out... ".

I have no idea whether Professor Healy would subscribe to your ideas on narcissism, but I do know from his own website http://www.healyprozac.com and various other professional sources that he is aware of homicidality being caused by DRUG ADVERSE EVENTS.

You send mixed messages. On the one hand you complain about various psychiatrists and the dangers of zyprexa yet on the other you attempt to discredit those psychiatrists who are willing to risk their reputation, their job, their future by warning of those risks - see your last post to Dr Lucire (and my apologies to the good doctor for my mistake re 'Professor') who, if you were to take the trouble to read some of the articles available on her site with regard to SSRI antidepressants, http://www.lucire.com.au/SSRIs_main.aspx also risks hers.

I find it curious why a man who purports to fight for the rights and safety of children who are allegedly being 'stolen' by (Canadian?) authorities and of those being sexually abused, would come to the website of a UK government politician just at a point where the Finnish tragedy is being discussed as regards the risks of antidepressants which affects UK children, and then try to disprove that already documented adverse effects could be the reason an 18 year old (possibly 17 when he started on antidepressants) child became homicidal, and making a huge assumption from videos made shortly before homicide that he was clearly a Narcissitic personality and in that way, take the heat off the drugs by blaming the patient.

Your first reply to my, admittedly somewhat irritable and rather impolite initial message, to you asked

"pg, please explain why you decided to go after messenger and not after the message?..."

I would again point you to your last response to Dr Lucire and ask YOU why it is that YOU are the one going after a very courageous messenger.

karol karolak

pg, Kernberg is psychoanalytic thinker and not a "scientist" as we imagine them. Dr. Kernber’s books are very interesting as they support and supplement Dr. Martin Teicher's finding on abnormal bicamerality of brains of child abuse victims. Dr. Martin Teicher's findings also support Dr. Julian Jaynes’ finding on bicamerality presented in his book “The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind”.

I am an engineer by education and when I started reading Kernberg’s books I felt like I was reading some fairy tales. The reason I have read these books was that that one day I stumbled on description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder in DSM IV -TR and it listed 9 symptoms and stated that positive finding of 6 symptoms were enough to diagnose someone with that condition. Right then I have realised that my wife at the time presented all 9 symptoms listed. I wanted to find out more and as I read Kernberg’s books I decided to find out how true were his descriptions and while I was verifying Dr. Kernberg’s theories, my than wife discovered in me someone who finally understood her.

Since then I have learned how to “sense out” people suffering from NPD and once I know what to look for it makes job of finding it much easier.

Since NPD sufferers have no access to right side of their brain responsible for generation of emotional face expressions they have to generate these expressions consciously. Since conscious thinking process take time their facial expressions lag their verbal expressions. On top of that their facial expressions are usually overdone.

When you talk to someone who feels to you as being overbearing and you notice his grimaces trailing their verbosity by about a second than you have a very good indication that you are dealing with a narcissist.

None of that is being taught in medical schools training future psychiatrists so they are as easily duped as the rest of population.

The funny part is that most Narcissist that I meet even for very brief time quickly “sense out” that their projection of a “false ego” does not fall on another gullible mind. After such brief encounter they go out of their way to meet me again and verify their suspicions.


Distingushing the difference between facts and theories in science:

FACTS, this time - Pfizer on Lyrica:

"Other Adverse Reactions Observed During the Clinical Studies of LYRICA..."

"...Nervous System – Frequent: Anxiety, Depersonalization, Hypertonia, Hypesthesia, Libido decreased, Nystagmus, Paresthesia, Stupor, Twitching; Infrequent: Abnormal dreams, Agitation, Apathy, Aphasia, Circumoral paresthesia, Dysarthria, Hallucinations, Hostility, Hyperalgesia, Hyperesthesia, Hyperkinesia, Hypokinesia, Hypotonia, Libido increased, Myoclonus, Neuralgia, Rare: Addiction, Cerebellar syndrome, Cogwheel rigidity, Coma, Delirium, Delusions, Dysautonomia, Dyskinesia, Dystonia, Encephalopathy, Extrapyramidal syndrome, Guillain-Barré syndrome, Hypalgesia, Intracranial hypertension, Manic reaction, Paranoid reaction, Peripheral neuritis, **PERSONALITY DISORDER,** [emphasis added] Psychotic depression, Schizophrenic reaction, Torticollis, Trismus..."

Alongside other FACTS such as

"...Cardiovascular System – Infrequent: Deep thrombophlebitis, Heart failure, Hypotension, Postural hypotension, Retinal vascular disorder, Syncope; Rare: ST Depressed, Ventricular Fibrillation..."


Otto Kernberg's for one. Theories are open to valid counter-arguments because they are not established FACTS:


"...Moreover, Kernberg FAILS to offer a model of internalization; he asserts only its existence. At points where critical distinctions and relationships need to be explicated and clarified, he relies upon metaphors and technical language that seem at first glance to address the problem but on closer inspection are frequently only restating the initial problem in different terms. Perhaps the most egregious example is the circular explanation of split emotions in terms THEORY& PSYCHOLOGY11(5)706 of a split structure that is then used to explain the split emotions.

In addition, Kernberg wants to use the metaphor of static electricity as the principle of organization, yet his inconsistent use of the metaphor invalidates its explanatory power. One could argue that he has NOT advanced our understanding of the character disorders, but only created a FACADE of deeper understanding through his technical language. Eagle (1984) captures this point when he writes: ‘. . . the translation of clinical observations into metapsychological language hardly constitutes a deeper level of explanation. . . . It merely creates the ILLUSION that one is being more objective or more scientific or somehow providing a deeper level of explanation’ (p. 148).

karol karolak

Yolande Lucire, you might wish to read Dr.Otto F. Kernberg, "Aggression in Personality Disorders and Perversions"
and "Severe Personality Disorders: Psychotherapeutic Strategies"

Your approach to diagnosing personality disorders sounds troublesome.

If you go by DSM IV -TR trying to diagnose narcissistic personality disorder you will miss great many patients suffering from it. That being the case I would put very litte stock in your claim that if I were a clinician I would have noticed that personality disorder develops in some in mature formerly stable individuals on antidepressants.

Quite to the contrary antidepressants tend to unmask narcissistic personality disorder to untrained eyes.

Yolande Lucire

This First, Karol Karolak might not be a clinician, (I hope he is not as this might be a cause for concern) or he would have noticed that personality disorder develops in some in mature formerly stable individuals on antidepressants. Personality Disorder is a listed side effect of antidepressants, usually associated with chronic akathisia, and it is, as Teicher wrote, organic personality disorder with borderline features, particularly impulsivity and suicidal ideation and acts.
If the patient becomes a bit elevated, and this is what antidepressants do - elevate mood and induce a hopefully controlled manic shift, he/she becomes insensitive, over confident, a bit grandiose, entitled and looks very narcissistic. This seemed to happen to a politician who spruiks the benefits of antidepressants for beyondblue. He got into trouble with women and lost an election but found the drug very good for him. Some people enjoy being like that but their partners rarely like it.
This looks like narcissistic personality disorder (or borderline) to the naïve diagnostician but, as it did not arise in early life, but only after use of a substance that is reported to cause the effects under consideration, it is not a true personality disorder, but an organic mimic. If the diagnosing doctor has seen some tertiary syphilis cases or read about them or is familiar with other neurotoxic states that helps his m to recognise and to understand the myriad of psychiatric presentations of neurotoxic, brain states, such as arises for Mercury intoxication, (Mad Hatters) to Parkinson’s Disease, through to dopamine blockade and serotonin boosters. All are much the same in the variety of their presentations, like hysteria great mimics, and well described in the section on organic psychiatry in any standard textbook of psychiatry.
Second, blaming the pharmaceutical industry is what I do, when confronted with huge numbers of recurrently suicidal people on serotonin boosting medicines and misdiagnosed schizophrenia cases, which fill the mental health units. I also pay for professional insurance and I do not wish to see my insurer bankrupted. I do not blame doctors who rely on opinion leaders, I have collected advertisements, promotional materials and I understand what doctors have been told in Australia. I am aware of the differences between prescriber information (when you can get it) and what is told to doctors by drug reps. See http://www.lucire.com.au/
Some practice guidelines are based on the fraudulent Texas Medication Algorithm Project, TMAP see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Medication_Algorithm_Project
Schizophrenia treatment guidelines in Australia advise adding an antidepressant to an atypical antipsychotic without telling the unfortunate, poorly advised GP or psychiatrist that most serotonin boosting (or depleting) antidepressants are dangerously incompatible with atypical antipsychotics whch also act on serotonin metabolism. Chronic organic toxicity is the inevitable outcome, with a variety of presentations along the axis of violence towards self or others, psychosis, out of control behaviours and cognitive and memory problems including amnestic episodes, as well organic psychosis (complex visual hallucinations) complicating the functional psychosis (schizophrenia, depression, mania) for which, when one really looks at pre-medication state, there might never have been any evidence at all.
TMAP was a PhaRMA funded exercise in ’consensus science. Opinion leaders were feted and appended their signatures to hundreds of PhaRMA produced ghost written papers lauding these drugs while their makers had already settled hundreds of cases of suicide homicide, even mass homicide for damages. See http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/
That matter may be sorted in Texas where the Texas Attorney General and several others have joined fraud litigation against many new serotonin drugs (these include amphetamines, ICE and Ritalin, whether they are medical or illicit,) charging that they were fraudulently promoted. I see this as a ‘duty to warn issue’ as do American litigators. In Australia, I see little other than false information, or weasel words, being circulated and taking the ‘moral high ground’ lest we fail to treat soemone who might without treatment commit suicide, and allow the suicides of two others redistributing death. At the same time, a million Australians take antidepressants whose side effects cause a costly public health disaster, with increased demand as well as increased suicide and homicide rates under mental health care. See www.health.nsw.gov.au/policy/ cmh/publications/tracktragedy2.pdf
While treatment guidelines are written by the pharmaceutical industry or by persons with vested interests, this will continue. I would advocate paying $10 for each adverse event report made by a citizen or a professional, and subjecting the information so generated to scientific scrutiny, and not hiding it as does the FDA so it can be accessed only on FOI requests.
Third. Personality and psychiatric diagnosis has nothing to do with side effects, which are biological effects, which occur in persons who cannot metabolise the drugs. They include increasing depression in those who were formerly only anxious. The GP, unaware of increasing depression being a side effect of their initial serotonin depleting activity, either increases the dose or tries another serotonin drug, and a third. The next step is a Mood Disorder Clinic where the rest are tried in series, often in doses augmented by thyroid, lithium or antipsychotics, with no improvement and chronic suicidal illness supervenes, with marked confusion and cognitive impairment, evidence of, in those who know and recognise basic clinical signs, organicity, or neurotoxicity.
Yes, I have data: My own medicolegal reports of some 500 cases of serious adverse drug events, (which no one in authority wants to look at even in a totally de-identified state), as well as information about 200 admissions for suicidality and violence on Serotonin drugs to a mental health unit, comprising a third of its work load.
Suicidality occurs in healthy volunteers as well and in some, one in fifty by some accounts, and one in five hundred killed themselves in clinical trials and follow-up studies. (Range 189-239/100,000 v max 69/100,000. See http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=healy+risk+conundrums&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Search
Most persons who get antidepressants were not ever biologically depressed before they got the medicines. They were anxious, stressed’ by life events. Drug effects are not side effects, but adverse events. As is the case with giving a normal person LSD and hallucinations it is an effect, not to be unexpected. It is bizarre how we recognise these effects when such substances are consumed on the street, but ignore them, when a medical practitioner prescribes them. Psychosis, suicidality violence and mania are effects of antidepressants. See www.breggin.com/31-49.pdf
Hence the availability of the non-insane automatism defence secondary to involuntary intoxication. While it stands to reason that a person with poor control generally might have less control over Effexor induced homicidal ideation than another, it is usually the formerly normal person who kills. This does not make this kind of thinking under the influence of Efexor a moral issue, or ‘planning’ homicide, as it is involuntary. Having hallucinations on LSD is not a manifestation of personality or character but a drug effect, easily generalised to those who metabolise it a certain way.

karol karolak

Yolande Lucire, blaming big pharma does not explain off label prescription of psychotropic drugs especially when it is done by GP's.

Yolande Lucire

Zyprexa is licensed for the treatment of schizophrenia and bipolar illness. It is not licensed for the treatment of drug-induced psychosis.
Zyprexa actually has the following as listed psychiatric side effects (not in the body, but mental) in American PI. (APPROVED AGREED-UPON LABELLING.. It has line numbers cited here.
Note there were five schizophrenia trials at this time but only two short six week trials are cited in the document as ‘establishing efficacy” line numbers 112 113. Line numbers as in APPROVED AGREED-UPON LABELLING 1997 2003.
261 Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome.
264 altered mental status
282 Tardive dyskinesia
321 Seizures occurring in 0.9%
358 Potential for motor an cognitive impairment
378 suicide (which is blamed on the illness)
416 Interference with motor and cognitive function

Adverse Reactions
610 denial of discontinuation reaction, See FDA reviewer statements \
628-personality disorder
630 somnolence, dizziness, tremor
638 akathisia, articulation impairment
639 Events reported by at least 2%: agitation, anxiety, apathy, confusion, depression, hallucinations, hostility, nervousness, paranoid reaction, personality disorder, thinking abnormal,
644 COSTART (Non aggressive objectionable behaviour)
650 at more the twice the placebo rate: speech disorder, amnesia,
625 many already listed as well as apathy confusion euphoria
659 at least 2%: emotional lability, abnormal dreams, agitation, hostility, insomnia, akathisia, anxiety, insomnia, libido up or down, nervousness, paranoid reaction, personality disorder, sleep disorder, thinking abnormal (what can this mean here given results for akathisia?)
676 akathisia rates are given as percentages: 23% on placebo! 16%, 19% and 27% on Zyprexa, increasing with dose. Using Barnes Akathisia Scale. Note akathisia is a medication-induced condition WHICH CANNOT IN ITS DEFINITION OCCUR IN PLACEBO PATIENTS.
685 akathisia events (different from the simple observable movement disorder ((DESCRIBED ABOVE.) on placebo 1,on Zyprexa 5% 11% and 10%.
286 11% and 10% statistically different from placebo.
691 COSTART counted akathisia and hyperkinesia
693 choreoathetosis
746 Body as a Whole — Frequent: dental pain and flu syndrome; Infrequent: abdomen enlarged,
747 chills, face edema, intentional injury, malaise, moniliasis, neck pain, neck rigidity, pelvic pain,
748 photosensitivity reaction, and suicide attempt; Rare: chills and fever, hangover effect, and sudden
749 death.
I enclose the metabolic disorders as they also have psychiatric manifestations:
763 Metabolic and Nutritional Disorders — Infrequent: acidosis, alkaline phosphatase increased,
764 bilirubinemia, dehydration, hypercholesteremia, hyperglycemia, hyperglycemia, hyperuricemia
765 hypoglycemia, hypokalemia, hyponatremia, lower extremity edema, and upper extremity edema;
766 Rare: gout, hyperkalemia, hypernatremia, hypoproteinemia, ketosis, and water intoxication.
694 movement diorder (what can this mean?)
770 Nervous System —
770 Frequent: abnormal dreams, amnesia, delusions, emotional lability,
771 euphoria, manic reaction, paresthesia, and schizophrenic reaction; Infrequent: akinesia, alcohol
772 misuse, antisocial reaction, ataxia, CNS stimulation, cogwheel rigidity, delirium, dementia,
773 depersonalization, dysarthria, facial paralysis, hypesthesia, hypokinesia, hypotonia,
774 incoordination, libido decreased, libido increased, obsessive compulsive symptoms, phobias,
775 somatization, stimulant misuse, stupor, stuttering, tardive dyskinesia, vertigo, and withdrawal
776 syndrome; Rare: circumoral paresthesia, coma, encephalopathy, neuralgia, neuropathy, nystagmus,
paralysis, subarachnoid hemorrhage, and tobacco misuse. 777
803 Physical and Psychological Dependence
804 In studies prospectively designed to assess abuse and dependence potential, olanzapine was
805 shown to have acute depressive CNS effects but little or no potential of abuse or physical
806 dependence in rats administered oral doses up to 15 times the maximum recommended human daily
807 dose (20 mg) and rhesus monkeys administered oral doses up to 8 times the maximum
808 recommended human daily dose on a mg/m2 basis.
809 Olanzapine has not been systematically studied in humans for its potential for abuse, tolerance,
810 or physical dependence. While the clinical trials did not reveal any tendency for any drug-seeking
behavior, these observations were not systematic, and it is not possible to predict
811 on the basis of
812 this limited experience the extent to which a CNS-active drug will be misused, diverted, and/or
813a bused once marketed. Consequently, patients should be evaluated carefully for a history of drug
814 abuse, and such patients should be observed closely for signs of misuse or abuse of olanzapine
815 (e.g., development of tolerance, increases in dose, drug-seeking behavior).
817 Human Experience
NOTE OVERDSES ON OLANZAPINE ARE ONLY ADMISSION MADE THAT SUICIDE ATTMEPTS OCCURRED IN CLINICAL TRIALS. 67 OF 3100 PATIENTS AS WELL AS OTHER UNCDISCLOSED SUICIDE ATTMPTS by other means. Eli Lilly might argue they were accidental but that would only suggest how confused these clinical trial subjects were,

818 In premarketing trials involving more than 3100 patients and/or normal
819 subjects, accidental or intentional acute overdosage of olanzapine was identified in 67 patients. In the patient taking the
820 largest identified amount, 300 mg, the only symptoms reported were drowsiness and slurred
821 speech. In the limited number of patients who were evaluated in hospitals, including the patient
822 taking 300 mg, there were no observations indicating an adverse change in laboratory analyses or
823 ECG. Vital signs were usually within normal limits following overdoses.
824 In post marketing reports of overdose with olanzapine alone, symptoms have been reported in the
825 majority of cases. In symptomatic patients, symptoms with ©¯10% incidence included
826 agitation/aggressiveness, dysarthria, tachycardia, various extrapyramidal symptoms, and reduced
827 level of consciousness ranging from sedation to coma. Among less commonly reported symptoms
828 were the following potentially medically serious events: aspiration, cardiopulmonary arrest,
829 cardiac arrhythmias (such as supraventricular tachycardia and one patient experiencing sinus pause
830 with spontaneous resumption of normal rhythm), delirium, possible neuroleptic malignant
831 syndrome, respiratory depression/arrest, convulsion, hypertension, and hypotension. Eli Lilly and
832 Company has received reports of fatality in association with overdose of olanzapine alone. In
833 one case of death, the amount of acutely ingested olanzapine was reported to be possibly as low as
834 450 mg; however, in another case, a patient was reported to survive an acute olanzapine ingestion
835 of 1500 mg.
I have also added this section as it should be known because GGGG is on 40mg or more of Zyprexa
852 Usual Dose — Olanzapine should be administered on a once-a-day schedule without regard to
853 meals, generally beginning with 5 to 10 mg initially, with a target dose of 10 mg/day within
854 several days. Further dosage adjustments, if indicated, should generally occur at intervals of not
855 less than 1 week, since steady state for olanzapine would not be achieved for approximately
856 1 week in the typical patient. When dosage adjustments are necessary, dose increments/decrements
857of 5 mg QD are recommended.
858 Efficacy in schizophrenia was demonstrated in a dose range of 10 to 15 mg/day in clinical trials.
859 However, doses above 10 mg/day were not demonstrated to be more efficacious than the
86010 mg/day dose. An increase to a dose greater than the target dose of 10 mg/day (i.e., to a dose of
861 15 mg/day or greater) is recommended only after clinical assessment. The safety of doses above
862 20 mg/day has not been evaluated in clinical trials.

As I was quoted saying in TIME MAGAZINE, provided
‘If you use drugs that target the brain, you should expect psychiatric side effects, sometimes unpredictable ones.’

Yolande Lucire

I regret I am not a Professor Lucire, but a forensic psychiatrist practicing in Sydney, Australia with a good B/S filter. I am a conjoint senior lecturer in Rural Health and a Senior Research Associate in Political science.
I see all around me an epidemic of neurotoxicity, iatrogenic disorders, violence suicidality and organic psychosis (not otherwise specified, NOS) which account for a more than doubling of mental health patients. This new population is confirmed by the NSW’s government’s need to already, since Prozac was released, to have built 273 new inpatient mental health beds in the state of NSW, population five million, and have up to 500 more psychiatric beds on the drawing boards. And there is a demand for a further three thousand medical and surgical beds. And the profession is still in denial.
‘Medical treatment’ has now overtaken strokes, heart attacks and cancer and has become the leading cause of death in the United States. See Death by Medicine http://www.healthe-livingnews.com/articles/death_by_medicine_part_1.html
(Unlike Dr. Gary Null, I have similar reservations about naturopathic medicines.)
It should surprise no one that sublethal consequences of medication fill emergency departments with poorly understood conditions and cause our crisis. On the last estimates, believed to be gross underestimates, 300,000 Americans die each year of medication side effects.
This problem is not soluble increasing the amount of health care provided, which in Australia seems to be limited only by the number of doctor hours available, but by improving heath care by educating practitioners.
This can only be done by forcing PHaRMAs fully to disclose clinical trial information, including NTT, number to treat, the number who started and did not finish because they could not stand the drug, had side effects, a population of whom prescribers are not told. Prescribers are told only about the group that tolerated the drug for six weeks, albeit poorly, in many cases. Drugs are made to seem better than they really are as adversely affected patients, those who suffer these adverse drug events (well known to PHaRMAs) are pulled out of trials and prescribers are not told. Clinical trial subjects do better than medication users in the community as only one drug is used in clinical trials and they are seen by raters weekly, and screened for adverse events and pulled out.
Trials thus yield better outcomes than what one sees in the community for the same medicines. Polypharmacy is the rule not the exception in Australia.
Health Ministers should not blame doctors who are victims of PhaRMA Fraud. They need to alert every man woman and child, doctor, nurse, physiotherapist, counsellor, pharmacist, osteopath, chiropractor, naturopath, medical typist and activist to what mental and physical states might be a side effect of properly administered treatment so it is not assumed to be evidence of a new disease demanding yet another medication. Suicidality, psychosis, mania violence, even homicide in the context of akathisia with behavioural dyscontrol are all side effects of all psychiatric drugs and occur in some genetically vulnerable people. And PHaRMAs refuse to warn because the occasional multimillion-dollar payout is chickenfeed when compared with private profits and taxpayer funded costs. For Efexor side effects, only those in nervous system from Product information on for American prescribers.
Side effects of Effexor from Product information attached. Nervous system - Frequent: amnesia, confusion, depersonalisation, hypesthesia, thinking
abnormal, trismus, vertigo; Infrequent: akathisia, apathy, ataxia, circumoral paresthesia, CNSstimulation, emotional lability, euphoria, hallucinations, hostility, hyperesthesia, hyperkinesia, hypotonia, incoordination, manic reaction, myoclonus, neuralgia, neuropathy, psychosis, seizure, abnormal speech, stupor, suicidal ideation; Rare: abnormal/changed behavior, adjustmentdisorder, akinesia, alcohol abuse, aphasia, bradykinesia, buccoclusal syndrome, cerebrovascular accident, feeling drunk, loss of consciousness, delusions, dementia, dystonia, energy increased, facial paralysis, abnormal gait, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, homicidal ideation, hyperchlorhydria, hypokinesia, hysteria, impulse control difficulties, libido increased, motion sickness, neuritis, nystagmus, paranoid reaction, paresis, psychotic depression, reflexes decreased, reflexes increased, torticollis.
I would be hard put to get informed consent to use this drug, and it is not licensed for kids.

karol karolak

pg, thanks for the links they are very interesting. Going back to reluctance of psychiatric community to do anything about antidepressants and atypical antipsychotic one has to realise that shrinks in North America are up to their necks in what appears to be one of worst cases of mass murder in recent history.

Please check these links;




All the documents that I have collected over last couple of years show very clearly that Olanzapine (Zyprexa) from the very beginning was recognised as a perfect murder weapon.

Initial Olanzapine experiments carried out on humans were conducted on Inuit of Baffin Island, an area known for very high suicide rate due to various causes. One would have to ask why there??? Answer to that question is very simple. If one wants to chop some wood in a way that it would escape any notice best place to do it would be forest hit by a tornado.

As you can see from reports of Dr. David Rudd (link above) “Zyprexa pump and dump treatment” ("pump" at psychiatric hospital with massive doses of Zyprexa and "dump" on a street) is extremely effective in inducing suicide of victims. On top of apparent suicide of the victim there is no Zyprexa (Olanzapine) left in his body (Zyprexa blocks serotonin receptors in the brain of the victim and stops/disrupts natural production of that neurotransmitter and when victim is dumped on the street Zyprexa washes out (is metabolised) creating acute serotonin deficiency leading directly to suicide of the victim).

This allegation well proven by current statistics of suicides following release from psychiatric hospital is so extreme that even Dr. David Healy stays completely quiet on that subject.

One just has to remember story of Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron and his experiments on psychiatric patients in Montreal.


Canadian psychiatric community to this very day remains unrepentant about Dr. Cameron so the chances are slim to none that they will ever be repentant about psychopath Dr. Lionel Trevor Young or his psychopathic mentor Dr. Eric Hood.


Weinstein, a Canadian psychiatrist trained at McGill and the AMI, is a successful practitioner in California. His story is a beautifully written and sensitive account of his personal experiences as a young boy having to face the fact that his adored father was developing a mental illness.
His father had been a successful businessman who developed a serious anxiety state and was referred to Cameron for treatment. He was finally admitted to the AM1 and subjected to psychic driving and depatterning. After more than three years he was discharged suffering from serious memory loss, lethargy, and confusion. Weinstein describes his own emotional state as an adolescent, a medical student and finally as a psychiatrist-in-training at the very institution where his father had been treated. His feelings of guilt and anger increased as he found it difficult to determine what exactly happened to his father. He must have found himself caught in a conflict between devotion to his new profession and the knowledge of his father's ordeal. Unlike the others, he had access to the AMI's medical records. Finally, after he had moved to California, he learned of the joint legal action against the ' CIA initiated by eight former AM1 patients and he was able to have his father listed as a ninth plaintiff. His book, like the others, appeared just before the out-of-court settlement was reached. The publishers have announced that a second edition will appear shortly in paperback which will add a final chapter dealing with the settlement and the aftermath. The action of the nine patients against the Canadian government resulted in review by an independent lawyer who expressed the opinion that the government was not culpable, and in any event the action was dismissed under the statute of limitations. Nevertheless a modest grant of $180,000 Cdn ($20,000 to each patient) was provided for assistance in the out-of-pocket and legal expenses, with the careful note that this implied no admission of guilt. Weinstein then provides a long account of the seemingly interminable negotiations with lawyers, the US Department of Justice and the CIA. Every conceivable method of blocking the action seems to have been tried by the CIA lawyers and it was not until June 1988 that a trial date was set for the following October. A day or two before the trial date, an out-of-court settlement l was reached providing $750,000 US to the nine patients (about $100,000 Cdn each). Apparently several of the patients still felt considerable resentment because there had been no trial and therefore no public conviction of wrongdoing by the CIA. As a further comment on the case, it should be stated that both the California Psychiatric Association and the American Psychiatric Association, through their presidents, have expressed regret and sym- pathetic understanding for Dr. Weinstein. No such expression has come from the Canadian Psychiatric Association although a sympathetic book review has appeared in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. Nor has any expression of concern been made by the Canadian Medical Association. An editorial in the British Medical Journal states that "the Canadian psychiatric fraternity has been remarkably coy about the episode." It quotes the Canadian Psychiatric Association statement that argues that "Cameron's experiments were submitted and accepted by peer reviewed journals and although his research would not be accepted by today's standards of ethical and scientific enquiry this cannot be used as a retrospective critique of his work."


Karol, OK I think I understand a little more of where you are coming from now, it wasn't particularly clear when in comments on a

topic of Pekka, his use of SSRIs, and media's failure to report that information, you brought up the subject of NPD, rather than the

documented life threatening ADRs that antidepressants, including psychosis, mania, akathisia, hallucinations, homicidal and

suicidal ideation.

I'm aware or the some of the lies promoted by big pharma (and by Key Opinion Leaders with ties to the industry), and I'm fairly

familiar with, and very much admire, the courageous efforts of David Healy. He has worked tirelessly in the UK to bring the the

risks of antidepressant induced "suicidal feelings or acts, or extreme aggression towards others" to the attention of the MHRA.


Coming back to the tragedy and loss of lives surrounding Pekka-Eric Auvinen, I believe that what David Healy describes in the

social audit link above is far more likely to be relevant to the situation, than that of an assumption made from videos (produced

while on antidepressants and/or in withdrawal with documented serious adverse effects) that the teenager had Narcissistic

Personality Disorder and so responded badly to those antidepressants.

I'm not sure why you are asserting that I was 'offering a different theory based on a hunch' in your previous reply? I know I said

that I would look up the 'testing' later, but that didn't mean I was working on a theory or a hunch, I was simply too tired to look

further to find the scientific evidence that I was referring to. I try not to rely too much on hunches. :)

The link to metabolism and adverse events is well established and a very important factor.

Firstly. We have the established documented evidence on the adverse effects of drugs as posted a few comments above.

Here is a little of the scientific evidence with regard to the link between CYP450 liver enzyme group, adverse reactions to drugs

and testing for polymorphism that I said that I would look up later.

General summary from Professor Lucire:
"Since l994, a substantial number of papers have been published in major refereed medical journals on Adverse Drug Reactions
(ADRs). The ballpark estimate is that each year 2.2 million Americans are hospitalised for ADRs and over 100,000 die from them. These are simply adverse reactions to drugs, which are often but not always, unpredictable, and appear only in the fine print of prescribing information. The first papers were greeted with disbelief but were found to be scientifically sound and follow up data confirms these findings. This causes concern at every level but it might be the case that the will to take appropriate action is
somewhat influenced by the huge donations made to political parties on both sides of the aisle by the pharmaceutical companies..."

Established scientific evidence that drug metabolism is important.
"...Because of their genetic makeup, some people process (metabolize) drugs slowly; as a result, a drug may accumulate in the

body, causing toxicity. Other people metabolize drugs so quickly that after they take a usual dose, drug levels in the blood never

become high enough for the drug to be effective..."

Evidence that testing / genotyping for polymorphism is available and is used in clinical trials - as can be seen in this article published back in 2001
"...In conclusion, we believe that the most important polymorphisms causing genetic differences in phase I drug metabolism are

known and therapeutic failures or adverse drug reactions caused by polymorphic genes can to a great extent be foreseen. This

information is currently being used by the drug industry during drug development. Many drug industries regularly genotype the

patients involved in their clinical trials to obtain more information regarding pharmacokinetic properties and observed side


Karol, ff your theory is basically sound that those with NPD are at a higher risk of going on a killing spree when on drugs, then yes OF COURSE it is common sense to screen out those with NPD. ANY means of screening out at least SOME of those at risk is common sense. It would seem to me that given the scientific evidence with regard to polymorphism, that too would be common sense (and perhaps failure to do so could be considered negligence?) and would help save SOME of the many lives that are currently lost due to drug related adverse effects - in this case antidepressants. In certainly wouldn't save all, but SOME is a considerable improvement to doing nothing. Who knows, perhaps one simple blood test given before prescribing a drug or drugs that carry FDA warnings might have saved the lives of young Pekka-Eric Auvinen, his 7 fellow students and his head teacher last week.

karol karolak

pg, BTW you have no clue of how many lies big pharma is promoting. Try to contact Dr. David Healy or Dr.Bruce Charlton both internationally known UK based psychiatrists to find out.

----- Original Message -----
To: Professional Assessment Services
Cc: info@pharmapolitics.com ; david.healy@nww-tr.wales.nhs.uk ; bruce.charlton@ncl.ac.uk ; linda@LindaMaguire.com ; david_goldbloom@camh.net ; sidney.kennedy@uhn.on.ca ; donald.wasylenki@utoronto.ca ; Evelyn Pringle ; CADRMP@hc-sc.gc.ca ;

Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:55 AM

Hi Dr. McKay,

I would not go as far as to say that Toronto shrinks (Drs. David Goldbloom and Sidney Kennedy) were willing to throw themselves on swords to keep the Zyprexa Experiment secret. Quite to the contrary, Linda Maguire's incarceration and Zyprexa pump and dump treatment at CAMH in winter of 2002/2003 (full two years after Healy's Affair) indicates that they considered Pitisulak/Healy incident as a temporary setback that they successfully put behind them.


Wheels started to come off their wagon again when it turned out that Linda Maguire lived thru attempted murder by Drs. Wehrspann, Soni and Young and came back from US to Toronto seeking redress. This, and a letter that I got from Peel Regional Police in June of 2004 stating explicitly issue of historic multiple homicides in Nunavut Territory sent them again into cover up mode.

On a second go around they decided to distance themselves from perpetrators;

1. Dr. Eric Hood's resignation from CAMH in 2004 and his retirement from Dep. of Psychiatry at U of T in 2005,
2. Dr. Lionel Trevor Young's apparent escape from Toronto by accepting position of chief Psychiatrist at Department of Psychiatry of U of BC in 2007 can be considered a demotion (whole Department of Psychiatry at University of British Columbia can fit into phone booth), CPSO's revocation of his hospital privileges at CAMH was also very unusual considering his "apparent" position in Canadian psychiatric community.


3. Dr. William Holt Wehrspann got booted out of George Hull Centre where he used to work as a Head Shrink and CPSO revoked his hospital privileges

Latest letter that I have received from the Honourable Wally Oppal Attorney General of British Columbia mentioned Dr. Lionel Trevor Young and Dr. Eric Hood by name, that was very unusual considering potential for bad publicity, damage to reputation of both individuals steaming form it, and BC government's complicity in such action (nowhere does it say in that letter that information contained in it are suppose to be considered confidential).

By all the looks of it Dr. Charles Smith's fiasco will pale in comparison when this story blows.


Karol Karolak P. Eng.

----- Original Message -----
From: Professional Assessment Services
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:18 AM

I think I understand what you’re saying here. Is it that CAMH was willing to help destroy 2 of their guys with Healy in order to save their reputation and keep the lid on what they were doing with the Innuit, and when Pitsulak died, they no longer needed Healy for any purpose? If so, this sounds plausible to me.

Dr. M. McKay

-----Original Message-----
From: KAROL KAROLAK [mailto:karol_karolak@rogers.com]
Sent: November 7, 2007 12:03 PM
To: Professional Assessment Services
Cc: david.healy@nww-tr.wales.nhs.uk; linda@LindaMaguire.com; david_goldbloom@camh.net; sidney.kennedy@uhn.on.ca; donald.wasylenki@utoronto.ca; Evelyn Pringle; CADRMP@hc-sc.gc.ca


Hi Dr. McKay,

It seems to me that everybody bought into this B.S, about Eli Lilly and Co. curtailing academic freedoms by trying to destroy Dr. David Healy's professional career. It is no small wander that Dr. David Healy was offered cash settlement, and generous TV and press coverage in Canada in 2001.

When you take a look at dates and events it all makes perfect sense; Pitsiulak v. Wooder decision was handed down on March 10, 1999 and three months later CAMH attempts to hire the only person in the World who was in a position to blow a lid on Canadian Zyprexa Experiment on Inuit of Baffin Island.


Pitsiulak's ultra-light is found and Pitsiulak's body is recovered on July 14, 2000 and it takes CAMH and Eli Lilly boys five months to figure out how to stage the comedy of Dr. Healy's dismissal.

One would have to ask himself ask why top shrinks at Department of Psychiatry at U of T and CAMH willingly played roles of villians in Healy's Toronto Affair and advertised their actions to Canadian press.

When we consider that their actions were part of well organised attempt of a cover up of Zyprexa Experiment on Baffin Island and were aimed at deflecting public attention from real issue of psychotropic drug induced suicides than all of it makes perfect sense.



This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.doctorsintegrity.org/healy/healy_mcilroy.htm as retrieved on 26 Jul 2007 12:23:59 GMT.

Dr. David Healy

Prozac criticized, job offer withdrawn
By Anne McIlroy, Scripps Howard News Service

TORONTO - A world-renowned scientist saw a job offer at the University of Toronto evaporate after he warned that the popular antidepressant Prozac may trigger suicide in some patients.

The drug's manufacturer, Eli Lilly, is an important private donor to a mental-health research institute affiliated with the university. Critics say it appears that David Healy's job offer was rescinded to avoid offending the corporate giant or for fear of compromising future fundraising efforts. Eli Lilly said it had no role in the matter. The university said the decision not to hire Healy was made by the center for Addiction and Mental Health, an affiliated teaching hospital, and that it would not be proper for the university to question it. The center for Addiction and Mental Health, for its part, steadfastly denies that it has allowed fundraising concerns to interfere with academic freedom.

``If you are asking me if his comments influenced our decision, let me be clear that there were a number of factors involved. We regret that our actions have been misinterpreted as an attack against academic freedom and as a conflict of interest,'' said Paul Garfinkel, chief executive officer. ``Let me be clear, we've never made an offer or withdrawn an offer on the basis of an impact on an outside donor.''

When initially approached by The Globe and Mail several months ago, Healy, who works at the University of Wales, was reluctant to speak publicly about what happened. He said he decided to do so to publicize his concerns about Prozac and to raise questions about the appearance of a conflict of interest at University of Toronto. ``I've had people call from a number of countries asking whether it is safe to say something (critical) about pharmaceutical companies. The public needs to know what happened here,'' he said in an interview. Healy said that he made his views clear in private interviews with university officials before the speech.

University of Toronto colleagues are providing a public platform for him to express his views on Prozac next week. Toronto has been courting Healy since July of 1999. They made him a formal written offer of a combined faculty and clinical position in May of 2000, followed by a more detailed letter in August. They hired a lawyer to help him immigrate. Then, on Nov. 30, 2000, Healy gave a wide-ranging lecture in Toronto in which he criticized pharmaceutical companies for avoiding experiments that could demonstrate problems with their drugs, and for not publishing unfavorable results. He said the data show that Prozac and other popular antidepressants in the same chemical family may have been responsible for one suicide for every day they have been on the market.

A week later, Dr. David Goldbloom, physician-in-chief at the university's mental health unit, rescinded the offer to Healy in an e-mail, a copy of which was sent to The Globe and Mail in an unmarked brown envelope. Goldbloom told Healy his lecture was evidence that his approach was not ``compatible'' with development goals. Development, in the university context, is widely understood to mean fundraising. Eli Lilly, the drug company that manufactures Prozac, is its ``lead'' donor according to the mental health unit's Web site, contributing more than $1-million to the center's $10-million capital-fundraising campaign.

Copyright 2001 Doctors for Research Integrity


Nunatsiaq News

July 14, 2000

Ultra-light pilot not licenced for passengers
The pilot of an ultra-light aircraft that crashed late last month did not have permission to carry passengers or fly in poor weather.
Nunatsiaq News

IQALUIT — Simata Pitsiulak should never have taken Allen Angmarlik on the fateful ultra-light flight that took both their lives on June 29, says an official with Canada’s Transportation Safety Board.

The well-known Nunavut carver was not licenced to carry passengers on board his two-seater, ultra-light aircraft, said Marc Fernandez, the senior investigator with the Transportation Safety Board office in Quebec.

"The pilot held an ultra-light pilot licence and this licence did not authorize the pilot to fly ultra-light aircraft with passengers aboard ," Fernandez said his week.

Pitsiulak and Angmarlik were found dead last Thursday at a crash site 15 miles outside of Kimirut on what a Rescue Co-ordination Centre (RCC) official said was probably a direct route from Kimmirut to Iqaluit.

Their small aircraft had no instrumentation to deal with the "instrument flight rules" — or "IFR" weather conditions they encountered on the trip, said Fernandez. Pitsiulak was only qualified to fly in weather in which visibility is good — under visual flight rules, or "VFR," Fernandez said.

Though VFR conditions existed when Pitsiulak and Angmalik took off, visibility quickly dropped to zero as the plane encountered the same low-lying clouds that hampered later efforts to find the two men.

"The weather at the time of the accident was the ceilings were between 100 and 200 feet ceilings. That’s IFR weather condition," Fernandez said.

Captain Bruno Castonguay, an aeronautical co-ordinator at the RCC, estimated the crash happened only 15 minutes into the flight, assuming the aircraft moved on a straight path and did not double back.

"The evidence the search and rescue people gathered as a team is that the aircraft stalled and crashed in the ground, so it is permitted to believe that the pilot lost control of the aircraft in clouds," Fernandez said.

Loss of control

He said that losing control in clouds is almost inevitable when a pilot can’t see and has no instruments to rely on.

"I’m a pilot myself. You loose control very fast. You have no reference with the outside. You don’t know if you are going down, up, left, right and he didn’t have those instruments on board the aircraft to tell him whether he was climbing, descending, going left or right. So he was strictly going on his senses and the senses are wrong. The inner ear especially is giving you a wrong informations, so what happens after a few seconds in clouds — they give you maximum 20-30 seconds to loose control — and what happens is you feel the aircraft is climbing too steep, so you push the nose down and then you feel that the aircraft is going to fast, you pull up and eventually you are going up and down and then you stall the aircraft and you crash," Fernandez said.

The two men were found in the very first area that was searched, said Castonguay, but he said that poor weather played a big role in the week-long search.

"There was a lot of effort to try to search out there, and initially it was difficult to go up, because there’s a lot of plateaus in there and the plateaus were the difficult part to look at. So all the valleys and stuff were done, the low ground, but the higher ground was difficult," said Castonguay, who said that the low-lying clouds made surveying the plateaus next to impossible.

A total of 79 military personnel, members of the RCMP in Iqaluit and Kimmirut and 50 or 60 Iqaluit residents helped to search close to 20,000 square miles, said Eric Doig, the manager of emergency services with the Nunavut government.

During the last four days of the search, as many as 10 aircraft were attempting to locate Pitsiulak and Angmarlik.

"We had two Hercs, two Labrador helicopters, one Griffin, three Twin Otters. We even had an ice recon jet do a fly-over," said Doig. A Coast Guard helicopter also aided in the search.

Castonguay said there were initial efforts in Kimmirut to do a ground search, but those were abandoned because the terrain was too difficult to traverse with all-terrain vehicles.

While the time taken to find crash victims can play a role in their survival, it did not in this case, said Castonguay. Both men were killed instantly in the crash, he said.

Search was difficult

Doig said that snow also made the ground difficult to search. He said it was light reflecting off a piece of metal on the downed ultra-light that caught the eye of a search crew on board a Kenn Borek aircraft.

The search could not have been as large had it not been for the military.

"We would have depleted our budgets in the first few days," said Doig. The military worked well with local people and took them on board their aircraft to act as guides. Doig said the military had three flight crews for each of their aircraft so they could run the search 24 hours a day.

Doig said the federal Transportation Safety Board would not be launching an investigation.

"Maybe it’s better for the family if they don’t look too much further into this," said Doig.

Fernandez confirmed that there would not be any further investigation, nor would there be any recommendations made.

"There is no lesson to safety really in that, since the aircraft was not equipped to fly in those conditions and the pilot was not, you know, and there were not supposed to be any passengers on board," said Fernandez.

He compared ultra-light aircraft to motorcycles or all terrain vehicles.

"It is more for pleasure craft. People purchase ultralights because they want to be free and they don’t want to be bothered by too many regulations," he said. He said that Pitsiulak had owned other ultra-lights in the past and had accidents with those vehicles too.

"I remember talking to him and telling him to be careful and get maybe the proper training and an aircraft, maybe a real aircraft," said Fernandez.

karol karolak

Look, pg everybody has his own theories; you have yours, and I have mine.

I have build up my theory on observations, some scientific findings, and simple conclusions.

You are offering different theory based on a hunch that there might be something there that might show up in blood or urine tests. Given so many different things that can go wrong when someone is using antidepressants it might as well be that inability to metabolize them properly will show up in blood or urine tests and will one day become very useful tool to predict about half of adverse reactions that you have cut and pasted.

All that I am postulating here is that if we assume that Narcissistic Personality Disorder sufferers are at higher than average risk of going on a killing spree (going postal) after they are given antidepressants than common sense would tell you that they should be screened out if we are going to keep on prescribing them to general population.


Kkarol, bearing in mind the phrase "Hardest to spot are the things that are located in front of your nose":

Homicidal Ideation and a number of adverse drug effects that look rather like schizophrenia, bipolar, NPD, and a host of other mental illnesses. Spacing and asterisks added:

"Nervous system -

amnesia, confusion, depersonalization, hypesthesia, thinking abnormal, trismus, vertigo;

*akathisia*, apathy, ataxia, circumoral paresthesia, CNS stimulation, *emotional lability*, euphoria, hallucinations, *hostility*, hyperesthesia, hyperkinesia, hypotonia, incoordination, *manic reaction*, myoclonus, neuralgia, neuropathy, *psychosis*, seizure,
abnormal speech, stupor,
*suicidal ideation*;

abnormal/changed behavior, adjustment disorder, akinesia, alcohol abuse, aphasia, bradykinesia, buccoglossal syndrome, cerebrovascular
accident, feeling drunk, loss of consciousness, *delusions*, dementia, dystonia, energy increased,
facial paralysis, abnormal gait, Guillain-Barre Syndrome,
*homicidal ideation*, hyperchlorhydria,
hypokinesia, hysteria, impulse control difficulties, libido increased, motion sickness, neuritis, nystagmus, *paranoid reaction*, paresis, *psychotic depression*, reflexes decreased, reflexes increased, torticollis."



Karol - I'm going to have to answer you para by para because its a lot and I'm tired. So it will sound like a list, but not intentionally.

"Pg, I am guessing here but it seems to me that the biggest hurdle that you need to overcome to move forward on this issue is accept the fact that so called personality disorders are not just a quirks of some sort (benign polymorphism of way of thinking that some people experience) but totally alternative wiring diagrams."

Firsly I accept completely that there are people around with personality disorders, I've never said or believed that they didn't exist. That "hurdle" does not exist.
Not sure what you mean, or are getting at re "benign polymorphism".
Whether its a 'literal' difference in the physiologically of the brain or an effect of upbringing or other factors etc, I don't know,and whether the best neuroscientist around actually knows for certain if there is any physical difference, I don't know either. But for sure - I believe there are many people with personality disorders for whatever reason they have got them.

"My analogy to left-handedness was the closest that I could think of that you might be able to accept. You know that human internal organs are not symmetrical and you might also know that on a rare occasion people are born with reversed locations of all their internal organs. My question to you would be this; how would you as a casual observer be able to tell such person apart from anybody else??? I am afraid that you would have some insurmountable difficulties to find out this fairly basic info even if you tried. Easiest way would be to use a stethoscope and walk up to such person and listen to their heartbeat checking left and right side of their chest. Such simple test is very difficult conduct in social setting as people would question your motives and your need to know. "

Yes, that is obvious.

"Now lets look at situation of a surgeon that is about to perform a heart surgery. Does he need to know this kind of information?? What happens when if instead of checking for this very rare anomaly in human anatomy he just assumes that the patient that he is about to operate on has his heart on left side like everybody else??? Would such an assumption by heart surgeon amount to gross negligence in case his patient died as a result of it??? "

Yes, he would be expected to listen to the heart before surgery at the very least, presumably that would be when he would hear that the heart was not in the place he expected it to be and would then take further steps to examine and establish its exact position.

"Going back to Pekka-Eric Auvinen, he left behind enough information in public domain before he went on his killing spree that it could be fairly accurately determined that he was narcissist (please read up on symptoms)."

Taking a shortcut and using wikki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder to summarise the basics of narcissistic personality disorder, it says:

"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), is defined as a mental illness primarily characterized by extreme focus on oneself, and is a maladaptive, rigid, and persistent condition that may cause significant distress and functional impairment" - and -
DSM-IV divides personality disorders into three clusters based on symptom similarities[2]:

Cluster A (paranoid, schizoid, schizotypal): odd or eccentric disorders

**Cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic, narcissistic): dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders

Cluster C (avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive): anxious or fearful disorders

Narcissistic personality disorder is a "cluster B" personality disorder."

I hope the wikki summary will do for the purposes of this response.

Pekka ALSO left behind in public domain, and recorded in the Finnish media, that he had, quote, "started using anti-depressants during the past year" and therefore during the period running up to the shootings when the 'narcissistic disorder' was on display across the internet, it cannot be ascertained as to his state of mind as (presumably) a 17 year old when he was first given an antidepressant.

I'm not sure, but were you implying that antidepressants are prescribed after the sort of rigorous testing of the person to whom they are given, in the way a heart surgeon works?

That might happen perhaps in clinical trials where more focus is given to each participant as they screen various disorders out, but that isn't the case in a busy GP's surgery!

Even in a clinical trial setting it looks as though it is hardly 'accurate'. otherwise Pfizer would not have a report showing a participant on only DAY ELEVEN of a Zoloft trial being taken off out of it of developing a desire to kill others and himself, though you'll see that is not what the OFFICIAL record said on page 1, it was only noted on page 2. http://www.ssri-uksupport.com/PfizerZoloft1983.pdf

Of course there's also homicidal ideation listed on page FORTY as an adverse reaction on Wyeth's Effexor drug info site, http://www.wyeth.com/content/ShowLabeling.asp?id=100 that drug being an SSRI that changes to "SNRI" over a dose of 150 mgs.

As to the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and psychiatric adverse drug reactions listed (it might save time to use the effexor pages while looking for homicidal ideation, though psychiatric symptoms, some serious are recorded on all SSRIs) - can you find a difference?

"Great many other murder/suicides in US were committed by people who could also be fairly accurately described as suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not some kind of newly discovered (read cooked-up) mental condition as it was first described by Sigmund Freud. "

Rather a lot of murders and suicides have been committed by people treated with psychotropic medications also who have never been diagnosed with NPD, in fact in some cases not even with mental illness. Some of the even young children.

I didn't say NPD didn't exist. You mention 'cooked-up' mental conditions. Does this only apply to new ones? Because if some of those are 'cooked up' they sure do have some big names promoting them and lots of smaller names following them, and one day they will be decades old, at which point will they be accepted as good sound diagnosis because [insert name} first described it decades ago?

"What is new here is Dr. Martin Teicher’s discovery of alternative functional and biological brain anatomy. You simply cannot say there are things that we still do not know because our science is not there yet, and when we will get there we will know the answers, and this is exactly what you are proposing."

I'm not sure that I was proposing things the way you have said there? In fact I'm not quite sure what you are saying? I think in a way I was proposing that it will never get there until starting to look in a different place, or something like that? And I was saying a simple blood test which according to an article or two (that I will have to look it up at another time) has been around quite a while - at least in the US - which will FAIRLY reliably test how well liver enzymes can metabolize drugs, but is rarely used, and even more rarely mentioned.

It was NOT by the way, referring to Roche's more recent testing equipment - which might just be an a rather expensive way of doing exactly the same little blood test.

"We already know as Dr. Martin Teicher’s findings are based on research conducted by many scientists around the World. To my knowledge Dr. Teicher’s theories have not been disproved by others."

Fair enough, I know too little of him to comment.

"My five cents conclusions on this particular subject, despite sounding quite arcane, are just a result of a very obvious observation.


"Ps. Hardest to spot are the things that are located in front of your nose."

I quite agree!

karol karolak

Pg, I am guessing here but it seems to me that the biggest hurdle that you need to overcome to move forward on this issue is accept the fact that so called personality disorders are not just a quirks of some sort (benign polymorphism of way of thinking that some people experience) but totally alternative wiring diagrams.

My analogy to left-handedness was the closest that I could think of that you might be able to accept. You know that human internal organs are not symmetrical and you might also know that on a rare occasion people are born with reversed locations of all their internal organs. My question to you would be this; how would you as a casual observer be able to tell such person apart from anybody else??? I am afraid that you would have some insurmountable difficulties to find out this fairly basic info even if you tried. Easiest way would be to use a stethoscope and walk up to such person and listen to their heartbeat checking left and right side of their chest. Such simple test is very difficult conduct in social setting as people would question your motives and your need to know.

Now lets look at situation of a surgeon that is about to perform a heart surgery. Does he need to know this kind of information?? What happens when if instead of checking for this very rare anomaly in human anatomy he just assumes that the patient that he is about to operate on has his heart on left side like everybody else??? Would such an assumption by heart surgeon amount to gross negligence in case his patient died as a result of it???

Going back to Pekka-Eric Auvinen, he left behind enough information in public domain before he went on his killing spree that it could be fairly accurately determined that he was narcissist (please read up on symptoms).

Great many other murder/suicides in US were committed by people who could also be fairly accurately described as suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not some kind of newly discovered (read cooked-up) mental condition as it was first described by Sigmund Freud.

What is new here is Dr. Martin Teicher’s discovery of alternative functional and biological brain anatomy. You simply cannot say there are things that we still do not know because our science is not there yet, and when we will get there we will know the answers, and this is exactly what you are proposing.
We already know as Dr. Martin Teicher’s findings are based on research conducted by many scientists around the World. To my knowledge Dr. Teicher’s theories have not been disproved by others.

My five cents conclusions on this particular subject, despite sounding quite arcane, are just a result of a very obvious observation.

Ps. Hardest to spot are the things that are located in front of your nose.


Paul, I didn't see your second reply when I started the long reply to Karol, apologies.

I think you meant 'unrealistic' and you are right. But even knowing that, people can become overwhelmed at times with frustration, anger and despair, particularly when lives are being damaged and sometimes lost because of the trundlingly slow, sometimes it seems, backward, way campaigns go. I expect you've felt that way sometimes too? :)


Firstly, no you don't offend my sensibilities. To answer your question, I have no idea if a Narcissistic Theorist is a term at all, I was basing it on the paragraph regarding Narcissism.

I will admit to finding it hard to determine the perimeters between where you are quoting, and where you are not in places, and that hasn't been made clearer by your use of analogies, though they are very good - and one or two places even brought a smile to my face.

Perhaps the point that aggrevated me was that of the impression given by the para I quoted, that it appears, to me at least, to assume that the personality of the spectacular crash should be considered over and above a change in personality and the onset of akathisia, psychosis and mania caused by adverse drug reactions in their own right, or similarly by drug interactions, or again by genetic polymorphism or any other scientifically reasonable possible cause. ie, that the reactions of chemicals in the human body (or mostly in the brain in this case)cannot create havoc in their own right dependent upon things like drug metabolism, body weight, health factors etc, but that if they are not observably phsyicaladrs then they are experienced in people with a particular personality.

To try to explain further maybe I should take a tip from you and use analogy.

In a slightly different scenario, there is a world where vehicles are manufactured en masse, although in various difference of design and build etc. The ONLY test that is carried out for road fitness is undertaken on the wiring system, and by inspectors who have a very limited knowledge of circuitry as it is all hidden away in hard to see places.

This leads to a small proportion of spectacular crashes which could be set off by many different factors, such as a blown tyre because the inflation of tyres for these new vehicles is haphazard. Some leave almost flat, some are over-inflated but many are fine as they're all filled by personal judgement of what a good tyre should look like. - I don't drive and know nothing about cars, so a tyre may not be the best analogy, but for the sake of this, it will have to do.-

Well-meaning safety inspectors have only one understanding with vehicles: That the safety of every vehicle depends solely on its wiring, thus a tyre that has blown at 70 mph is always reported to be due to some fault in the wiring.

As time goes on, a few curious inspectors discover how to test the pressure of a newly made tyre, very simply and cheaply. This simple test will cut down enormously on spectacular crashes by tyres as they will be filled to the right pressure when fitted to a new vehicle.

However,some manufacturers are not particularly interested in change as things are running along nicely and, besides, there's generally an acceptance that wiring can cause problems, bad things happen in wiry places and everything that can be tested is, so why bother to make a few changes. The majority of the well-meaning inspectors feel that this test would be useful if it were relevant but that the test is insignificant up against the great challenges of getting to fully understand the wiring problems in order to improve safety.

So, the spectacular crashes go on and the wiring is continually blamed when in fact the majority of the crashes are due to putting too much air into the tyres in the first instance, which in turn is due to the lack of utilizing a simple test.

When an estimated 8-10% of Caucasians, I don't know the percentage for other races, are unable to properly metabolize psychotropic medication due to genetic polymorphism, then a simple blood test before prescribing drugs that cannot be metabolised with polymorphism would seem a rather practical way of avoiding some of those crashes and the inevitable discussion about the wiring in the first place.

This is likely full of grammatical or typographical errors but as I've already spent over an hour trying to put it together and edit it, I'm post without another preview.

Cheers :)

Paul Flynn

To PG.
Unfortunately campaigns are rarely successful in the short term.One medicinal cannabis I have been campaigning for 15 years without very little progress. Only in September was there a step forward with a 20 year campaign to improve illegal drug policies. It's not realistic to expect swift action.

karol karolak

pg, please explain why you decided to go after messenger and not after the message? You know nothing about my education and qualifications on this or any other subject so why you assume that I am Narcissistic Theorist of some sort??? I just pointed out to you or anybody else that cared to read my post that there is serious contradiction between Dr. Martin H. Teicher's research and current medical approach to use of antidepressants in treatment of depression. I know that it might be quite difficult for you to grasp the fact that not everybody has the same functional wiring of their brain.

Let me try to explain using different example. I hope that you are prepared to accept the fact that small but significant number of human population is left handed. Let’s assume for argument’s sake that there is a car manufacturer who decides to build a car and replace traditional steering wheel with joystick that can be operated using right hand only. This car manufacturer conducts numerous test of their new car to prove improved safety and convenience of their product. Right handed majority of population just love this new invention so this car manufacturer starts to mass produce and sell their new invention.

After a while, numbers of their new and improved cars are involved in hard to explain spectacular accidents involving other vehicles. This car manufacturer conducts all kind of tests in order to determine causes of these accidents and eventually they come to conclusion that almost all of them were caused by people who are left handed.

Now they are faced with a dilemma; there are not enough left handed people to design and manufacture a car for their needs, they cannot single out left handed people as culprits in all accidents involving their vehicles as it will amount to discrimination, and they do not want to take away from majority of population newly created convenience.

At the very end of the day they vaguely admit that there might be a small portion of population who might find it difficult to operate their vehicles and this difficulty might translate into spectacular crashes that we are witnessing but this is the price of the newly created convenience.

I hope that such allegory does not offend your sensibilities and explains to you what I have been trying to convey in my original post.


Thank you for the reply and most certainly for tabling an Early Day Motion.

I expect you're right re the rest, but it so often feels that nobody is listening to any of us because nothing much changes and, though I haven't checked today, the BBC certainly seem to have failed to include facts that are pertinent to the Finnish tragedy.

The media are acting as a judge and jury by deciding what people should or should not know and by doing so they are denying physicians, patients, and society generally, the chance to evaluate the effects drugs can have for some in the real world and make informed decisions.

If the media had more integrity then maybe by now school massacres and a great number of other tragic incidents would have come to an end as the risks of psychoactive meds would be better known, better considered before prescribing them, and better monitored when prescribed to watch for problems arising.

The videos that the Finnish School Shooter made were removed by YouTube on the day of the tragedy, but a Finnish news source have one in their possession, to do with SSRIs.


Pekka is quoted as having made statements such as:

"I´m sorry that I have behaved this way. The medication makes me frustrated and aggressive."

"I have not been taking my medication for a couple of days and my mood has really been a little hostile."

Its difficult to believe that the BBC (and other major news sources in the UK) were not aware about the antidepressant link printed in Finland and also mentioned on Danish TV on the 7th November.

I for one appreciate you tabling an Early Day Motion thank you :)

Paul Flynn

Thanks pg.
I get about a dozen e-mails a week with news of pharmageddon. The reporting of an incident like this, without mentioning the SSRIs, is a change to draw attention to their dark side. I will table an Early Day Motion in the Commons tomorrow on the lines of the above posting.
Not see you? I have seen many people campainging against drug harm. Always best to recruit more MPs rather than preach to the converted


"...Of all three types Narcissistic Personality Disorder sufferers are most likely to show extreme reaction to use of antidepressants as in many cases they have managed to conceal monster residing in their heads not only from everybody they interact with but also from themselves. NPD monster residing in their right hemisphere is very often stunned in its development resembling mentality of 6 years old child trying to get his way. Murder/suicide so characteristic of NPD on a rampage is a result of sudden realisation that the monster in their heads did not die with NPD sufferer's victims"

WOW, Karol. Thats all fine and hunky dory from a Narcissistic Theorist's point of view which yours clearly is but, coming back down to earth, are you aware of liver enzymes that affect the metabolism of drugs? Such as CYP450? I know you feel really self important, and far be it from someone lowly - like a previously normal but ordinary person put on drugs for post op blues - to cast just a tad of doubt on your message, (and by the way do the PHYSIOLOGICAL side effects of drugs such as strokes, diabetes, cardiac problems etc depend on whether or not the patient possesses a narcissitic personality - and if not why would the neurological side effects be any different?)and I SO bow down to your obvious education and qualifications that you're trying to put across - but could you, just for once, forget your own delusion of intellectual superiority and cut out the psychological bull? People aren't as stupid as you think. Thanks.


There is plenty of information around and near you, in the UK, and has been for some time.

Finland shootings? Try here;


SCHOOL shootings?

We, a few of us in the UK, have been working REALLY hard for YEARS on this kind of thing, but the only thing that seems to make an impression on UK politicians or UK media such as the BBC is the mention of ONE drug in a whole class that cause homicidal and suicidal ideation. "SEROXAT". Why is that?

We really would like to know. We're not scientologists. We're people who got harmed by drugs THE UK GOVERNMENT allow on the market. We're not after compensation, we choose instead to work towards trying to warn other people of the risks.

How come you don't see us?

karol karolak

----- Original Message -----
To: Professional Assessment Services
Cc: martin_teicher@hms.harvard.edu ; info@pharmapolitics.com ;
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: 8 dead in Finnish school shooting

Dear Dr. McKay,

Re: Guns do not kill people, antidepressants (Paxil, Celexa,Zoloft, Prozac) prescribed to Malignant Narcissists induce switching of dominance of brain hemispheres, false feeling of invincibility, and narcissistic rage resulting in murderous sprees ending in suicide of Narcissistic assailants.

Thank you for your prompt response.

Whole issue of antidepressants causing increased rate of suicides was first raised by Martin H. Teicher in 1990.

"In 1990, one of the first public reports of Prozac's propensity to induce suicide appeared in an American Journal of Psychiatry article by two Harvard psychiatrists and a registered nurse. (Martin H. Teicher et al., Emergence of Intense Suicidal Preoccupation During Fluoxetine Treatment, 147 Am. J. Psychiatry 207 (1990).)"

When Dr. David Healy got on that bandwagon and started to cause a real stink Eli Lilly and Co. decided to buy Dr.Martin H. Teicher.


"Lilly has built its defence of Prozac on a 1991 finding by the federal Food and Drug Administration that there is no credible evidence linking Prozac to suicide. Glenmullen and others have challenged that finding, alleging it was based on flawed clinical testing and marred by alleged conflicts of interest held by several members of the FDA's panel of outside experts.

Though sales have slipped somewhat in recent years as other antidepressants entered the market, more than 35 million people worldwide have taken Prozac, and Lilly derived more than 25 percent of its $10 billion in revenues last year from the drug.

The lawsuit also focuses attention on the new drug, which Lilly hopes will extend its antidepressant franchise after the last Prozac patents expire in 2004.

The key patent for the new drug was obtained in 1998 by two officials at Sepracor Inc., a Marlborough-based drug company, along with Dr. Martin H. Teicher, an associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard who works at McLean Hospital in Belmont.

OUR TEAM INITIATED this research with the hypothesis that early stress was a toxic agent that interfered with the nor­mal, smoothly orchestrated progression of brain development, leading to endur­ing psychiatric problems. Frank W. Put­nam of Children’s Hospital Medical Cen­ter of Cincinnati and Bruce D. Perry of the Alberta Mental Health Board in Canada have now articulated the same hypothe­sis. I have come to question and reevalu­ate our starting premise, however. Hu­man brains evolved to be molded by ex­perience, and early difficulties were routine during our ancestral develop­ment. Is it plausible that the developing brain never evolved to cope with exposure to maltreatment and so is damaged in a nonadaptive manner? This seems most un­likely. The logical alternative is that ex­posure to early stress generates molecular and neurobiological effects that alter neur­al development in an adaptive way that prepares the adult brain to survive and re­produce in a dangerous world.

What traits or capacities might be beneficial for survival in the harsh condi­tions of earlier times? Some of the more obvious are the potential to mobilize an intense fight-or-flight response, to react aggressively to challenge without undue hesitation, to be at heightened alert for danger and to produce robust stress re­sponses that facilitate recovery from injury. In this sense, we can reframe the brain changes we observed as adaptations to an adverse environment.

Although this adaptive state helps to take the affected individual safely through the reproductive years (and is even likely to enhance sexual promiscuity), which are critical for evolutionary success, it comes at a high price. McEwen has recently the­orized that overactivation of stress re­sponse systems, a reaction that may be necessary for short-term survival, increas­es the risk for obesity, type II diabetes and hypertension; leads to a host of psychi­atric problems, including a heightened risk of suicide; and accelerates the aging and degeneration of brain structures, in­cluding the hippocampus.

We hypothesize that adequate nurtur­ing and the absence of intense early stress permits our brains to develop in a manner that is less aggressive and more emotion­ally stable, social, empathic and hemi­spherically integrated. We believe that this process enhances the ability of social ani­mals to build more complex interperson­al structures and enables humans to better realize their creative potential.

Society reaps what it sows in the way it nurtures its children. Stress sculpts the brain to exhibit various antisocial, though adaptive, behaviors. Whether it comes in the form of physical, emotional or sexu­al trauma or through exposure to war­fare, famine or pestilence, stress can set off a ripple of hormonal changes that permanently wire a child’s brain to cope with a malevolent world. Through this chain of events, violence and abuse pass from generation to generation as well as from one society to the next. Our stark conclusion is that we see the need to do much more to ensure that child abuse does not happen in the first place, be­cause once these key brain alterations oc­cur, there may be no going back.

Now, the real question; What does Dr. Martin Teicher knows but is not willing to tell us??? Since he started whole debate about connection between antidepressants and suicide that propelled him to fame in psychiatric community it is hard to imagine that he ever dropped that subject. "The lawsuit also focuses attention on the new drug, which Lilly hopes will extend its antidepressant franchise after the last Prozac patents expire in 2004. The key patent for the new drug was obtained in 1998 by two officials at Sepracor Inc., a Marlborough-based drug company, along with Dr. Martin H. Teicher, an associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard who works at McLean Hospital in Belmont. The patent brought Teicher full circle in the Prozac debate: He had ignited the decade-long controversy with a 1990 paper about sudden, self-destructive tendencies among patients who had recently begun taking Prozac.The patent describes an antidepressant derived from Prozac that, the inventors assert, is formulated in such a way as to decrease the current drug's adverse effects, ranging from headaches and nervousness to ''intense violent suicidal thoughts and self-mutiliation.'' That assertion is based on Teicher's paper." .

I do not know what Dr. Martin Teicher must have been smoking in 1998 but his findings presented in "Scars That Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse" in 2002 article completely contradict his claims made in 1998 regarding this "new and improved" antidepressant. Antidepressants cannot alter brain's biological and functional anatomy, what they can cause instead is that rapid switching of dominance from left to right brain hemisphere that he observed and described.

Of all three types Narcissistic Personality Disorder sufferers are most likely to show extreme reaction to use of antidepressants as in many cases they have managed to conceal monster residing in their heads not only from everybody they interact with but also from themselves. NPD monster residing in their right hemisphere is very often stunned in its development resembling mentality of 6 years old child trying to get his way. Murder/suicide so characteristic of NPD on a rampage is a result of sudden realisation that the monster in their heads did not die with NPD sufferer's victims.


Karol Karolak P. Eng.

Do we have any information about his “psychiatric treatment?”

Dr. M. McKay

Guns do not kill people, antidepressants (Paxil, Celexa, Prozac) prescribed to Malignant Narcissists induce switching of dominance of brain hemispheres, false feeling of invincibility, and narcissistic rage resulting in murderous sprees ending in suicide of Narcissistic assailants.

If anybody is looking for villains they should blame in on psychiatric community prostituting themselves to pharmaceutical industry.


Your moronocracy column went down well in work today. Particularly poor ole' Lembit 'Cheeky Girl' Opik. Specially funny was his quote about Mark Oaten being full of surprises. I also like that he went on holiday to Thailand of all places to get away from it all. His adviser must be a genius.


Thanks John. I share your suspicions. There is more than a little hysteria about the condemnation of cannabis by the prohibition establishment and others. Of course it has its dangers -especially to those with fragile mental health, but it has a 5,000 year history as a benign medicine to billions of people in all continents.
The PASC committee is looking at lobbying. We will have some questions to ask the lackeys of the Pharmas.


Like you Paul I have a very high aversion to any conspiracy theory but look at this article.


The title is "Retired librarian bludgeoned to death by cannabis thug - for refusing to give him a cigarette"

Yet read the article and Cannabis was not involved at all yet prescription drugs (SSRIs? )and alcohol where. The vast majority of the so called Cannabis linked violence in fact has nothing to do with cannabis yet this has entered public folk lore now.

Is it the fact that Cannabis has been found by researchers from Kings College London and Cologne University as being a more potent anti psychotic than any of the currently available prescription drugs.Do I sense the hands of the Pharma's around the hysterical reporting of cannabis. There is certainly some agenda around this reporting I'm sure, beyond the usual keep the people scared and misinformed that seems to be the tabloids role.

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