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February 13, 2011

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HuwOS

"I was there"

You're so special, as well as not believed in the slightest, primarily due to the way you spin all manner of tall tales about your Gumplike placement at all the key moments in history.

"Hint: who build the very first packet switcher for ARPAnet."

Hint: Who cares?
We are talking about private money in the internet, and there was none until '91,
When everything that made the internet exploitable was there conceived and funded by the non-private sector.

Go on KayTie, ignore facts, move the gateposts, and finish off yelling, screaming and drumming your heels against the floor as is the inevitable result of one of your idealogical tantrums.

Kay Tie

"Sure KayTie, spew away."

I was there, Huw. I'm not going to be lectured on the history of technology by an ignorant bitter old Trot-come-lately. Go away and learn some history of the net. Hint: who build the very first packet switcher for ARPAnet.

HuwOS

"You've pointed it out. But that doesn't mean you're right. In fact, you're wrong. The state didn't create any of those things."- KayTie

"email, telnet, irc, newsgroups and the world wide web."

Sure KayTie, spew away.
But your lies are blatant as this is a matter of record, private finance had nothing to do with the above and there was no private involvement in the internet until after they were all in place.

Once everything was in place, then sure, the market certainly had its place in expanding its availability.

But it would have had nothing to exploit but for all the non private finance, energy and time that went into creating all the basic building blocks and all the intelligence and creativity that made them work together well enough to make it something the market would be keen to exploit.

No one has argued KayTie that the free market isn't good at exploitation.

D.G.

"Didn't you notice all that fibre being laid? All those servers being installed?"

That's the kind of activity that's paid my wages for the last 6 years :)

But there's a lot more to the internet than the physical infrastructure. The market, the state and academia have all played important roles in the creation and widescale utilisation of the internet and will no doubt continue to do so. ISOC has a great paper on it.

http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief.shtml

Kay Tie

"So, if the state didn't, and the market didn't... holy hell, it wasn't the Big Society, was it?!"

The internet we know today was created by the market. Didn't you notice all that fibre being laid? All those servers being installed?

Well, maybe you didn't. Maybe you think the fairies made computers and delivered them to you by stork.

D.G.

""I've pointed out before KayTie, that there was no, nada, zip, zero private money to the internet until after everything required for the internet to be useful was in place, email, telnet, irc, newsgroups and the world wide web."

You've pointed it out. But that doesn't mean you're right. In fact, you're wrong. The state didn't create any of those things."

So, if the state didn't, and the market didn't... holy hell, it wasn't the Big Society, was it?!

Kay Tie

"I've pointed out before KayTie, that there was no, nada, zip, zero private money to the internet until after everything required for the internet to be useful was in place, email, telnet, irc, newsgroups and the world wide web."

You've pointed it out. But that doesn't mean you're right. In fact, you're wrong. The state didn't create any of those things.

"You have not tried my "foul ideology" you choose to pretend that certain historic dictatorships represent my "foul ideology", instead of the democratic and left leaning countries that I tend to admire such as those in Scandinavia."

Only because you read too much Polly Toynbee and have no idea how Scandinavia is governed.

"Whereas in fact, all of history has shown how successful your free reign to let markets decide everything leads to, and left unchecked it involves slavery, child exploitation, the direst poverty and incredibly low standards of education for the masses."

You haven't the faintest idea of what "free" means (nor of what "reign" means). Slavery? You're barking mad.

"It has been in force in this country since the 1980's and has led to what may be the greatest depression"

Oh yeah, we are as poor as we were in 2007. Oh dear. Whereas your model would keep us in perpetual poverty. Mrs. Thatcher came to power in 1979. We have become immeasurably freer and richer since then, and one blip and you think its the downfall of capitalism. You really are quite mad.

"since the great depression which of course was also a result of international markets and pure capitalist ideology."

Since the crash was caused by central bankers setting interest rates too low and causing a mis-pricing of risk, with the consequent mis-investment, it's governments that are at the root cause of the crisis, as ever. You and your social engineering chums thinking you can "plan" your way around human nature, deciding who will do what, are again the culprit.

"carry on making other peoples beliefs and ideologies up and then castigating them for holding them."

Right back at you.

"The real world, doesn't tend to allow any ideology to follow through to every scenario"

And praise the Lord for that, otherwise we'd have perpetual world totalitarianism. Your top down imposed control of people soon runs into the bottom up desires of individual people with their own goals, and they will not be confined forever, as we saw in Egypt last week.

HuwOS

"connecting to the world using the products of the free market"

I've pointed out before KayTie, that there was no, nada, zip, zero private money to the internet until after everything required for the internet to be useful was in place, email, telnet, irc, newsgroups and the world wide web.
The free market has been great to allow people and companies to exploit the basic infrastructure but there is no reason to believe that the infrastructure would ever have come into being if it would have had to rely on "investors"

The market KayTie, does have a place, but that place is not in charge.

"We have tried your foul ideology, Huw"

You have not tried my "foul ideology" you choose to pretend that certain historic dictatorships represent my "foul ideology", instead of the democratic and left leaning countries that I tend to admire such as those in Scandinavia.

Whereas in fact, all of history has shown how successful your free reign to let markets decide everything leads to, and left unchecked it involves slavery, child exploitation, the direst poverty and incredibly low standards of education for the masses.
It is in fact, KayTie, your foul ideology that has a history of the deepest darkest failure for the vast majority of the people of the world.
It has been in force in this country since the 1980's and has led to what may be the greatest depression, since the great depression which of course was also a result of international markets and pure capitalist ideology.

But never mind KayTie, carry on making other peoples beliefs and ideologies up and then castigating them for holding them.
It suits you.
It's quite funny really, as the only person who regularly posts here that seems to have a fixated need for ideological "purity" is you. The real world, doesn't tend to allow any ideology to follow through to every scenario and everyone else here understands that, even if we do all tend to disagree on many, many things.

Kay Tie

"once your free market pals have done their best to really screw the country and destroy the future for everyone"

How precisely has the free market screwed the country? Only a bitter old Trot, typing at a computer that itself is product of the free market, connecting to the world using the products of the free market, eating food that comes from the free market from around the world to his table, could live in the luxury of the produce of the free market while spitting in its face.

We have tried your foul ideology, Huw. It lead to the deaths of millions by starvation, and millions more by planning. Only a mad person would think to try it all over again.

Kay Tie

"Charities were given huge sums of money and other support by the previous Government. That is now being taken away from them."

So it's merely restoring things to how they should be.

Charities under Labour became quangos, the largest number of them paid to lobby government and hector the population. They sprouted like weed, doing nothing anyone wanted - the very fact they couldn't persuade people to give them money is concrete proof of this.

HuwOS

"Only if the Coalition collapses and New Old Labour returns"

As there are no major ideological differences between any of the three parties involved nothing much would happen that way.

Don't worry KayTie, once your free market pals have done their best to really screw the country and destroy the future for everyone, the actual left will pick up the pieces and put it all back together better than ever, giving your lot something to destroy again.


Alan Jones

The easiest approach to difficult times is to 'cut' , the challenge is to create innovative solutions. Thus far , this coalition of disparate ideologies appears to be moribund.I despair for the times ahead for my grandchidren. Happy days!

Paul Flynn

Charities were given huge sums of money and other support by the previous Government. That is now being taken away from them.

Kay Tie

"The pattern is set for a truly awful Government."

Only if the Coalition collapses and New Old Labour returns.

Kay Tie

"Savagely cut charities"

That's an oxymoron. If it's a charity then the money is donated, and isn't "cut". If it's government spending that's being "cut" then it isn't a charity, it's a quango.

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