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June 14, 2009

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DG

True, but RPC also had a good question about why MPs are so well suited to choose the next Speaker. As I said before, they didn't do too well with their last choice.

Again, I have no view either way - I don't care if the Speaker is chosen by egg and spoon race as long as they do the job properly (though that might give some of the more rotund MPs an unfair motivational advantage).

RPC

No, I have not gone. I'm still around - just biding my time.

Paul Flynn

RPC has claimed on another site that I altered his posts to change their meaning. This is untrue. He gives no example. He also suggest I blocked his posts. Why should I do that? His comments are so self-defeating, they destroy any point he/she is trying to make. But I think he has gone now.

DG

"Heaping abuse on all politicians is not an alternative to intelligent debate."

Neither is heaping abuse on all tabloid readers, to be fair.

I've no view on the Kinnocks either way, but there seem to be some double standards going on here.

Anne Widdecoombe... Saw her on Have...News. She completely shut down the banter and ruined the show. We don't need another bullying blusterer in a priviliged position.

John

Anne Widdecombe is in a world of her own her common sense maybe common but it certainly isn't sense. Her view of the world is similair to my 4 year old daughters belief in fairies at the bottom of the Garden. she has no idea how the vast majority of our citizens live.
I saw in an interview with her and Steve Rolles from Transform think it was on sky on drug policy, the nonsense that came out of her mouth that she justified as being common sense was not only unbelievable but quite scary that she actually may believe it.
Saying that make her speaker the sooner she is out of party politics the better

Paul Flynn

I had the good fortune to meet the Kinnocks at an anti-apartheid rally in 1969. I know their virtues and faults well. They are passionate about issues and ideals. They are not interested in money. `Their talented children have jobs in the same cities where their parents work. Why not?

I know it is difficult in the manic malice world of tabloid think to make a reasoned judgment. It is not possible to grasp the concept that there are good people who are not obsessed by money.

Heaping abuse on all politicians is not an alternative to intelligent debate.

Jolly Roger

I'm sure that I can tell talk from mutter,
But your Kinnock comment caused me to splutter,
My tea all over my brand new screen,
And I've to give it a Jolly good clean.
You say that the Kinnocks aren't interested in money?
Read it again Paul, it's really quite funny,
They've amassed far more than TEN MILLION QUID.
How Socialist is that? What d'ye reckon, our kid?

Against the Lords, but quick as a flash,
They forgot about that, and just thought of the cash.
No matter how good as MPs they were,
They haven't earned that much, of that I'm quite sure.
Whilst they may have done some good for the odd friend or neighbour,
They are part of what's wrong with Old and New Labour.
The Kinnocks followed Blair, down to the letter.
They found that "Things Can Only Get Better".

D.G.

In 2002, the top three tabloids (Sun, Mail & Mirror) sold over 8m copies between them. By pouring scorn on tabloids, you pour scorn on the electorate. I'm not a fan of these papers myself, but if they didn't address people's hopes and fears, they wouldn't sell. Polititians should be questioning very seriously - why do these papers appeal where politics doesn't? Why people think their vote in BB carries more weight than their vote in the General Election? And most importantly, wtf are we going to do about it? Because one thing's for sure, deliberately and continually alienating a large slice of the population is eventually going to lead to the kind of upset that makes a couple of BNP MEPs look like a slow news day.

But back to the subject - however intemperately put, the central point (I believe) of RPC's point has gone unaddresed. MPs elected Michael Martin as Speaker a few short years ago. They knew the candidates then, but by Paul's own admission, elected the only one that didn't turn up to the hustings - why? Maybe because the Whips told them too, and they valued their careers over their principals.

So why should MPs be trusted with this decision more this time than last?

(That's a deliberately provocative - or intemperate - question, btw)

Dawn

RPC it would appear from your rhetoric that you are indeed a sock-puppet.

I am a resident of what was Islwyn, and Neil Kinnock was my MP, with Glenys being my MEP. They have never let their constituents down, always giving their best despite all the prejudice, lies and ridicule that was all too frequently and undeservedly strewn in their paths.

This sincere, public (not self) serving family will never have any less than total respect from me, and I wish Glenys all the best in her new post, knowing that she will handle it well and do nothing but good.

Jolly Roger

A welcome to our new friend RPC,
From Roger, also known as Jolly.
Please bear with our host, the esteem-ed Paul,
His hospitality is well known to all,
But sometimes I get your selfsame trouble,
Having typed my drivel at the double.
I have had a number of my posts,
Consigned to the land of phantoms and ghosts.

Here's my advice, for what its worth
To protect the words to which you've given birth.
When having writ your chosen piece,
And prior to its ethereal release,
Copy and paste to Notepad or Word.
That's the advice from this oft spammed-out bird.
Then open the blog and post in a brand new page,
This may assist in assuaging your rage.
That's not to say that you're raging, quite the reverse,
But it conveniently rhymes to finish off this verse.

I see that you've met HuwOS.
Not your best friend, I'll hazard a guess.
And as you see the Flynn blog-plot gently thicken,
Huw says my postings simply sicken,
Him down to the very soles of his boots.
Unfortunately, for him, I don't give two hoots.
Every blog has got its pet Muppet,
This one's got Huw, he's Paul's Sockpuppet.

Kay Tie

"missed the intemperate stuff from someone who appears to be a tabloid reader."

Such bias against 11" x 17" paper!

Shocking paper racism. I suppose you're an A series supremacist? (OK, OK, I too believe in the inherent superiority of A4 over 8.5" x 14", but don't tell anyone, OK?).

Kay Tie

"Agree with him in general or not, but I don't believe many people who read it do not believe him to be sincere in what he says, even if we sometimes find it incredible that he says it."

I second that. All his views are sincerely held (even if some of them are more sincerely held than others). And I believe him to be straight and honest too (even if he dips into the art of spin from time to time).

I also dispute that the comments on here are "masturbation". More like S&M, if anything.

Paul Flynn

I have been busy doing MP work most of the day and missed the intemperate stuff from someone who appears to be a tabloid reader.

Glenys Kinnock was the best MEP I have ever come across. I said so when she decided to stand down. She is passionate about global suffering and she has no interest in personal money. What a spiteful attacks on them! Entirely unjustified.

my staff are instructed to remove any comments that are obscene or libellous. What did you write RPC? I am not convinced that you are a suitable person to read this blog. When not try blogs where they routinely slag people off with empty abuse.?

HuwOS

I see it has been decided to hold the Iraq war enquiry in secret.

Oh well, all that really means, is we know that after this enquiry, there will have to be another one, in public and apportioning blame.
Because no matter how many they choose to have that hide the lies and the deceit there will always be an insistence for one to explain how a few people decided to promote an unnecessary not to mention illegal war that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of men women and children. Why they thought they could get away with it and what to do with them.

Neither the Labour party nor the Tory party
neither of those supporters of this crime will get a vote from me until that kind of enquiry is held and appropriate consequences follow, I just hope other members of the electorate will choose to do the same, although I don't hold out there being much likelihood for them to do so.

HuwOS

Well I am not a fan of the list system.
STV would be preferable for all elections.

valleylad

"Glenys was an elected MEP" - I thought European elections were by party lists, not
candidates? In which case it might as well be an appointment!

RPC

I really could not stomach reading Paul Flynn's blog "over time" as you suggest.

What I have read to date (two day's worth) is enough to make be believe that reading Flynn's blog is more emetic than curative.

Nevertheless, I am determined to hang around for a while, if for no other reason than to keep on his toes an MP who sounds to me too much of the windbag Kinnock variety than one who is responsive to his constituency that elected him.

HuwOS

Also please note RPC and anyone who hasn't been around here long, arguments tend to be robust, but they should not be taken personally.

Many of the posters here are very pleasant, kind, polite, thoughtful, generous people, I am however not an example of one of those.
But Paul seems to tolerate many voices which does him credit, very few who post agree with Paul on everything, some with almost nothing.

One of the benefits of reading his blog over time is the picture you build up of him as a person as well as an MP. Agree with him in general or not, but I don't believe many people who read it do not believe him to be sincere in what he says, even if we sometimes find it incredible that he says it.

HuwOS

I hate to point out that Kinnock was an extremely successful MP, having been one from 1970 to 1995.
He did fail to lead the Labour party into government, people preferred to have Blair, shows how foolish people can be, but then they also voted Tory for over a decade and wouldn't vote Labour until it moved furhter to the right, so foolishness was a given at the time.

Gleny was an elected MEP from 1994 until this year and yes now has an appointed position, but clearly both she and Neil have had and continue to have a lot of support from the electorate, which they earned and maintained over many years.

I think you should probably try to keep a narrower focus rather than simply flailing at everything that upsets you as it certainly detracts from any points you may or may not be trying to make.

HuwOS

Thank you RPC your apology is of course accepted.

I am sorry to say that I cannot match your politeness in response to the rest of what you have been writing.

No one has commented on your post being tampered with because no one believes your post was tampered with.

Previously you were accusing Paul of blocking your IP address and preventing you from making posts, that did not happen so it is hard for people to take seriously the next claim of altering posts.
According to you, apparently the change made was to capitalise a word, it is a bizarre claim that it appears people are simply ignoring, perhaps as a kindness to you.

Furthermore your reliance on a poll in which 44% of the electorate gave no preference for speaker to justify your argument that Anne Widdecombe has the support of the nation is a failure.
The majority had no idea who they wanted.

Even if the 27% support was not going up against 44% no clue the reasons why the author, tv presenter and the person with otherwise high media profile had a better showing in a poll of the general public than other candidates are abundantly clear to all.

Pauls title was provocative, but his argument was clear and quite frankly unbeatable, the people in the best position to choose a speaker on their merits are the MPs who know all the candidates and from more than just television and radio appearances.

He has given his arguments and if you don't agree with him, fine, but you seem to think you are going to be able to bully him into submission, trust me, you can't.
His first choice is Bercow and second choice is Widdecombe, it is his choice to make and that as they say is that.
Who the house chooses is another matter and we will see if Mr Flynn has read it correctly.


RPC

Btw, why hasone of you Paul Flynn fans picked up on my post where I say that my post has been tampered with?

Someone - maybe an over-zealous secretary - (that's a let-out for you, Mr Flynn) has edited my original post.

I'd like to know who and why.

It's pretty despicable to edit a poster's comments without saying that same has been done and for what reason.

I have only posted on this blog for a couple of days and can only asssume from my experience here that Paul Flynn is a con-man of the first order.

RPC

Huw,

Most sincere apologies for incorrectly attributing to you a post that was not yours. It does take a little time to work out where the attributions lie - but that is no excuse.

My carelessness is reprehensible - I am so sorry.

I hope you can forgive me.

RPC

patrick

RPC
You really should refer to Kinnock using his proper title 'LORD'.

RPC

Craig says:

"The Kinnoks are very popular in Wales and were voted to their positions by the electorate. As are all MPs more to the point. If your logic of 'listen to the people' holds then you have no right to question the people's decision on who they vote in either. And the fact that there are political families is no strange thing. There are families of doctors, lawyers, nurses and soldiers. Successive generations of politicians have to earn their votes the same as anyone else."

I say:

Kinnock, a failed MP and leader of the then opposition was not elected to the post of European Commissioner - he was appointed - as have been all his sons and daughters and in-laws and great tall aunts and giraffes and kangaroos. (Refer to Rudyard Kipling).

Neither he, nor his family, earned any votes vis a vis Europe, and now Glenys has been appointed to a Minister through Gordon's abuse of the appointment system of the House of Lords which should represent venerable members of the public appointed to a peerage for services rendered, not an expedient way for Gordon brown to bypass the electorate and bolster his government-without-talent. Include in this category: Lord/Archbishop/King, who knows? Mandelsputin-of-many-titles.

HuwOS

RPC
as you will note with all posts, the name of the poster appears below their post not above it.
I have not mentioned any newspaper in any comment, you will find that Patrick did.

Your apology will be welcome should you choose to proffer one.

At the risk of this being taken as personal abuse, you do seem to be currently delving into the depths of paranoia.

RPC

HuwOS

What on earth makes you think I am a Daily Mail reader?

It is that kind of patronising remark that I find so alienating.

As though anyone with an alternative opinion to Polly Toynbee must, by definition, be a Daily Mail reader.

Let me challenge you; I bet you are a Guardianista and your heroine is Polly Toynbee - although even she says that Gordon Brown is history.

Please tell me otherwise.

RPC

"RPC your arguments are unstructured and filled with unaddressed anger issues.

I'm sure you'll fit right in with the regular Blog readers."

I have no desire whatsoever to fit in with Paul Flynn's regular blog readers and indulge in a communal masturbation.

There exists a wider world out there, dontchaknow?

My interest in this blog is to keep a self-satisfied, smug MP on his toes and to remind him who pays his salary.

And if he bans my comments I can go to thousands of other computers to post my comments.

Mr Flynn wll have to shut down his blog before he gets rid of me.

Craig

RPC, your statement is a sweeping generalisation. If I was to be elected to Parliament tomorrow you would be saying to the world that I was in it to line my own pockets regardless of my reasons for wanting the job. Some people enter politics for the kudos and power, I'm sure. But very few people would choose it for the money. The Kinnoks are very popular in Wales and were voted to their positions by the electorate. As are all MPs more to the point. If your logic of 'listen to the people' holds then you have no right to question the people's decision on who they vote in either. And the fact that there are political families is no strange thing. There are families of doctors, lawyers, nurses and soldiers. Successive generations of politicians have to earn their votes the same as anyone else.

patrick

RPC
I have commented on this blog for a couple of years. Sometimes i cannot post them, most times i can. Sometimes i cannot get onto the internet , most times i can.
I put this down to the complexities of my pc and the internet server. I can understand how a dedicated Daily Mail reader might get the wrong impression and think it's political enginneering. Just try not to let this minor mishap snowball into full blown paranoid delusions.

What would be the objective in deleting a post that simply states your stupidity.

I'm delighted that MPS will be choosing the new speaker. The majority of MPS from all parties (that have incedently not fiddled) are in the best position to know the candidates and get the best person for the job.

Members of the general public are far too busy watching and voting on Britain's got talent, Big Brother and X Factor to concern themselves with trivial matters like Euro or local elections.

To put the expectation and indeed burden on them to elect somebody that had nothing to do with a pop band or sport would be unfair and ludicrous.

HuwOS

Chris you do a disservice to regular blog readers.
However I suspect you meant regular comment contributors, a much smaller group.

RPC

Mr Flynn is not right. The house of Commons is an incestuous entity as has been demonstrated by the expenses scandal. It votes for its own self-serving perpetuation regardless of any morals or opinions of the electorate.

It sorely needs the breath of fresh air that can given by listening to the electorate.

For how much longer are we, the taxpayers, going to allow MPs to perpetuate such nepotism as evidenced by the Kinnock scam where the collective pension-pots of failed MPs and their progeny and relatives (aided and abetted by the so-called European Parliament which is more a rubber stamp of the EU ccommision than an expression of democracy) amount to more than most of us could hope to earn in a lifetime.

For goodness' sakes, they have daughters and sons and in-laws all on the gravy train and you and I are paying for it.

Enough is enough.

It is time that MPs listened to the electorate and stopped claiming that "MPs Know Best".

All that MPs know best about is how to line their own pockets.

Chris Carter

RPC your arguments are unstructured and filled with unaddressed anger issues.

I'm sure you'll fit right in with the regular Blog readers.

Craig

I think one of the reasons Anne is a front-runner with the general public is that they know her. My money's on the general public not being able to recognise the other names on the list. For better or worse, Paul's right - Anne's the favourite due to her recognition not as an MP and the way she votes in the House but as a TV agony aunt who 'fixes problems'. Who better to fix the Houses of Parliament than the no-nonsense agony aunt? If you added the 'Super Nanny' to the list of contenders I'd bet even more of my money on her beating Anne in public opinion!

RPC

Well said, sir.

HuwOS

To state that MPs who know all the candidates may know better than the electorate who know only those with the most tv exposure, how weak.

RPC stance is clear
They don't want a nanny state attitude from MPs they want the speaker as nanny.

I join in, in calling for MPs to listen to the electorate and go with the public's choice.
I urge you Mr Flynn to vote "don't know" for speaker, the clear preference of 44% of us.

If that option is not available to you Mr Flynn, as a constituent of yours, I instruct you to vote according to your own best judgement.

RPC

"I see. So now you believe that the role of an MP is to "provoke" the electorate. YOU insult your paymasters by deliberately "provoking" them. You must think of us as like orangutans in a zoo that you can poke with a schoolboy joke-stick to see if you can get a reaction."

My post has been tampered with.

I did not write "YOU" capital letters, insult your paymasters...

I wrote,

"Not content with fiddling your expenses, you further insult your paymasters...."

I have copies of all my posts.

DO NOT TAMPER WITH MY POSTS, MR FLYNN.

RPC

A poster calling him/herself "you could do with" thinks I need a course in anger management - oh dear, oh dear! So now, expressing a contrary opinion is considered by some as unbridled anger.

To what depths of psychobabble has New Labour sunk this country?

Words fail me.

However, contrary to your claim, "you could do with" I have already expressed an argument, over two posts, as to why I believe MPs should consider the public's preference, Anne Widdecombe, for the post of Speaker. You will find it under Mr Flynn's blog entry entitled "Runners and Odds for Commons Speaker."

Jim Dunckley

There's a saying from Argentina that comes to mind when I hear patronising stuff like this; "Que se vayan todos" - Get rid of them all!

you could do with

You could do with a couse in anger management. Nothing will be changed on this blog - except comments that are obscene or libellous.There have been 800 blogs, none has been withdrawn. This is not the best of them , but I am happy with it. You should content yourseleves by reading the blogs of MP who do nothing but grovel and butter up their constituents.

I'm pleased that the blog has captured your attention. You offer still no arguments why MPs do not know best over the general public on the choice of a Speaker. 44% of them had no opiinion.

RPC

So, let me try again and see if I can post from my own computer and using my own email address. Whatever you may say, I tried four times to post a reply from here this morning and four times the comment was refused.

You claim, Mr Flynn, that -

"The title 'MPs know best' was deliberately provocative. Thank you RPC for being provoked."

I see. So now you believe that the role of an MP is to "provoke" the electorate. YOU insult your paymasters by deliberately "provoking" them. You must think of us as like orangutans in a zoo that you can poke with a schoolboy joke-stick to see if you can get a reaction.

Not that I believe for one moment that your choice of title was, as you claim "deliberately provocative". I think that you realised you had made a gross error of judgment and your subsequent claim that it was done deliberately to provoke a reaction, i.e. that it was ironic and not meant to be taken at face value, is just back-peddling on your part.

Anyway, that won't wash, either, as explained above.

And thankyou, DG, for correcting Mr Flynn's schoolboy error (27 times more, not 27 times better; it was, I suppose, to be expected from such a "superior intellect"!

P.S. Well, surprise, surprise, I've just done a preview and the post has been accepted.

How strange that on four occasions my post of this morning was rejected.

Grant T

Breaking News - Frank Field had dropped out of the election for the Speaker.

Come on Anne!! :D

DG

RPC - don't take it hard, mate - Paul has a habit of making outrageous statements then mocking those who have the temerity to be outraged. I think it might be a passive-aggressive way of asserting intellectual superiority.

I got caught out in exactly the same way when he called the newly-elected council a junta, then hit me with an obscure dictionary definition of it meaning a gathering a like-minded people, or some such.

DG

"You do not say why you think the public is right in believing that Anne Widdioombe is 27 times as good as Beith and Bercow. That is a wholly mis-informed judgement. And ludicrous."

The public don't think that Anne Widdioombe is 27 times as good as Beith and Bercow - 27 times more people think Anne Widdecoombe is better than Beith and Bercow. Maybe by a very narrow margin, maybe by a factor of thousands - it can't be judged from those figures.

Paul Flynn

The title 'MPs know best' was deliberately provocative. Thank you RPC for being provoked.

You do not say why you think the public is right in believing that Anne Widdioombe is 27 times as good as Beith and Bercow. That is a wholly mis-informed judgement. And ludicrous.

Unlike the general public we know these people very well.


I can assure that your IP address has ever been blocked. I have checked with my spam filiter. Nothinghas been blocked..

RPC

As the above-named correspondent who has "had a strop against" you, may I offer my congratulations. You have encapsulated in just three words what is wrong with this New Labour government. "MPs know best."

What a patronising, smug, egotistical statement!

Does it not occur to you that the "ludicrous" judgment of the public in displaying a solid preference for Anne Widdecombe may be based on something more than mere celebrity status; that it is possible that in the course of her varied TV appearances, Miss Widdecombe has displayed that apparently rare amongst MPs commodity - common sense. Not to mention courage and a no-nonsense approach to some of our seedier citizens that, in the public’s estimation, would give her a head start in dealing with their close cousins in the House of Commons.

Your opinion that "MPs know best" and that the public displays "ludicrous judgment" is widespread within government and is exactly why you and your party will be ejected at the next General Election.

How you have the nerve to publicly upbraid those who elect you and pay your salaries , is almost beyond comprehension.

Are you not aware that MPs are servants of the electorate and not their masters?

MPs know best! What cheek!

Moreover, contrary to your appallingly patronising opinions, the general public is showing extremely good judgment and sound common sense in preferring Anne Widdecombe's no-nonsense, take-me-as-you-find-me approach to Bercow's oleaginous sycophancy.

It really is time, Mr Flynn, that you and your cronies listened to the electorate instead of lecturing them on their lack of judgment and treating them like recalcitrant pupils under a “teacher knows best” nursery regime.

P.S. That was very cowardly – referring to my previous posts in your latest blog and then blocking my IP address, so denying a right to reply and forcing me to use a different computer.

No doubt you will remove this post, but hopefully not before a few of your readers are alerted to your secret censorship of posts that do not flatter your ego.

Paul Flynn

That's fascinating Aiden. In Gwent it means the drainage ditches that carry away the water, Most are about 6 foot wide some 20 foot. They are often lined with willow trees and are very attractive. I had always assumed a reen was halfway between a rivers and a stream. Here is definitely the ditches not the drained area.

Aidan Byrne

I live in an area of Wolverhampton called Whitmore Reans - apparently the meaning is 'drained area'.

Paul Flynn

I am hoping Tony that the press story is a bit of kite-flying. The opposition to a secret inquiry will form a majority of the House.

Paul Flynn

THANKS ANDREW M. Now we know. It's an odd surname. I presume it still exists in the area. With his name you would expect to have lots of descendants.

andrewsimon

Mr Flynn,

Re your trip through lovely Somerset:

http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/map/hugh-sexey-middle-school-14101140.html

Named after Hugh Sexey. From Wiki:

Hugh Sexey (1556 - 1619) was born near Bruton, Somerset and attended Bruton Grammar School. By the age of 43 he had been appointed as Royal auditor of the Exchequer to Queen Elizabeth I and later King James I. After his death the trustees of his will established Sexey's Hospital in Bruton as an institution to care for the elderly. This included the site of Sexey's School, which still exists today

With regards,

Andrew M.

Tony

Stage managing the PLP meetings ? - is that the same meeting that GB promised to be more open and collegiate? - you could not really make this up ..

And I think you'll need a revolt across the House to stop the Iraq inquiry being so wide ranging that its effectively kicked into the long grass and will report many years into the future..

And again it draws your attention to the more open and honest style promised by GB and the Cabinet - if these numpties keep this up there won't be a Labour party

And as for Milliband and Johnson - these two are so spineless that I'm sure these non-vertebrates are included in the Cabinet as part of a diversity policy ..

We have issues over oil prices on the way back up, interest rates rising on mortgages and unemployment continuing to rise - would it be too much to ask that these are addressed ?

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